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  • #31
    Originally posted by kathyv View Post
    Sorry it's degenerated so badly, I apologize for not keeping a closer eye on it. I will be happy to close it, but maybe, in light of some recent steps taken, you'd like to continue the discussion? Let me know!
    I sent you a PM Kathy. I think the discussion can continue now. Let's leave the thread open.
    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    MLK Jr.

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    • #32


      Come to the Dark Side, we have cookies!

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      • #33
        I have just read this article from The Telegraph and wanted to see what your opinions are on it:

        Marine A: poll finds 47% want a lenient sentence

        Half of public want leniency for Marine A as MPs and military commanders say battlefield horrors must be taken into account in sentencing More people believe that Marine A should be shown leniency when he is sentenced for murdering a Taliban fighter than want him to receive a full life sentence, a poll for The Telegraph reveals.

        The Royal Marine is facing life imprisonment when a military court passes sentence next month after being found guilty of shooting dead a wounded captive at point-blank range in Afghanistan in 2011.

        A number of distinguished figures have called for clemency in his case, while condemning the crime itself.

        The ICM/Sunday Telegraph poll found that almost half - 47 per cent – agree that Marine A should be given a lesser sentence, saying that “the law should make an exception for a soldier serving on the front line”.

        However, in a sign of the moral complexity of the case, a significant minority - 35 per cent - believe the marine should receive a full life sentence for his crime, while 19 per cent did not express a view.

        Support for a more lenient sentence was highest among the over 55s, with more than half of those aged 55-64 saying that the law should make an exception for a serving soldier. Among the over 65s, some 55 per cent would support leniency.

        Younger respondents were more likely to want a punitive sentence although across all age groups more people would prefer the court to show leniency than to impose a full life term.

        The findings come as senior MPs warn that soldiers who have been scarred by the horrors of war should not be treated as if they were civilians guilty of crimes at home.

        Bernard Jenkin, a senior Conservative MP, and vice-president of Combat Stress, veterans’ mental health charity, said that Marine A’s crime was “inexcusable and has to be punished”.

        However, he urged the court to take account of the sergeant’s “true mental state”.

        “If it turns out that actually he is now in post-traumatic stress disorder and probably was at the time, then the law of diminished responsibility applies and that would mitigate his sentence,” Mr Jenkin said.

        “Counter-insurgency warfare takes a relentless toll on the psychology of combatants because the danger is imminent and constant. The threat of a roadside bomb or an ambush is unremitting. We know little about the real effects of this on people’s psychology.”

        Sir Gerald Howarth, a Conservative MP and former defence minister, condemned the actions of Marine A but warned that the Afghan campaign had taken “a heavy toll” on British troops.

        "No one can do other than condemn the actions of Marine A," he said. "Her Majesty's Armed Forces have a reputation for applying the highest standards even in the heat of battle.

        "However, the Afghan campaign, which has seen British soldiers killed by the Afghans they were mentoring, has taken a heavy toll.

        "We do not know what Marine A experienced during his tours, but the court should take into account when determining the sentence the cumulative effect on him of his battlefield experiences," Sir Gerald said.

        Field Marshall Lord Bramall, the former Chief of the Defence Staff, called for a review of the law, suggesting judges should have greater discretionary powers when sentencing such cases.

        Soldiers and police officers “have to take instant decisions under tremendous pressure” and this should be taken into account if they make the wrong decisions in the heat of the moment, he said. There “should not be a mandatory life sentence” in these cases, Lord Bramall added.

        The sergeant, identified only as ‘A’, was found guilty by a court martial of shooting dead a badly wounded Taliban captive at point blank range in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, in 2011.

        He was the first serviceman to be convicted of murder during the Iraq and Afghan conflicts, and faces life imprisonment when he is sentenced next month.

        The court martial will have to decide the minimum term he will required to serve before becoming eligible for parole.

        Marine A: poll finds 47% want a lenient sentence - Telegraph


        There definitely appears to be a majority swing toward leniency in sentencing Marine A, and I have to agree that "execution" or life imprisonment is too harsh. The act should be punished, but I am of the opinion that some of the considerations mentioned above should be taken into account, especially if proved that the Marine is suffering PTSD.
        Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
        MLK Jr.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Tantalloon View Post
          At it again MaxWANK old boy, insulting people more intelligent than yourself. YOU are the biggest TROLL I've ever seen on any forum. I'm aware you've already been banned before for foul mouthed abusive posts directed towards Polwarth but somehow you've slithered/begged your way back in.
          While the conversation might have gotten a bit heated your of topic abusive flaming of another member should get you an instant ban imho.
          Popping in and out of threads to call people names just makes you look like a troll.


          As for charging the soldier with manslaughter or culpable homicide then as far as I'm aware these charges are only normally used when someone has been killed by accident or neglect which neither is the case here as it was deliberate murder so the charge should be murder nothing else

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          • #35
            Originally posted by tig View Post
            As for charging the soldier with manslaughter or culpable homicide then as far as I'm aware these charges are only normally used when someone has been killed by accident or neglect which neither is the case here as it was deliberate murder so the charge should be murder nothing else
            I don't agree Tig, but I respect your opinion.
            Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
            MLK Jr.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Tig

              As for charging the soldier with manslaughter or culpable homicide then as far as I'm aware these charges are only normally used when someone has been killed by accident or neglect which neither is the case here as it was deliberate murder so the charge should be murder nothing else

              I don't see why the charge could only be murder given that his level of responsibility for his actions is conditional on the state of his mental health at the time of the killing and culpability would be diminished if it could be shown that he was suffering from some kind of stress related disorder. I don't know if his legal team was offered a plea bargain or if they gambled on a not guilty verdict on the murder charge but if that's the case then they made a blunder. Personally I have no interest whatsoever in the moral aspects - from a humanitarian perspective I don't care one iota that the victim was shot dead and the whole issue would have better dealt with if he had plea bargained to a lesser charge and the matter had been conveniently forgotten about. It serves no purpose at all to sentence him to life imprisonment given the stresses that he was subjected to in combat.
              "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

              - Martin Luther King Jr.

              Comment


              • #37
                Natasha Sultan killed her six week old baby, admitted the lesser charge of infanticide which the maximum sentence for is life imprisonment, but was give a 3-year supervision order. The judge said she “a maelstrom of fatigue and mental disorder”. If the courts recognize post natal depression as grounds for leniency, then why is it the courts can't afford the same to a soldier who has lived and fought under much greater stress for months and months in a war zone?

                Natasha deliberately killed her baby, Marine A deliberately killed his prisoner. Natasha gets a slap on the wrist and is set free, Marine A it appears, will be hung out to dry. Something is clearly not right with this picture.
                Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                MLK Jr.

                Comment


                • #38
                  My father fought in operation Husky, the invasion of Sicily in world war 2 and he told me that he did on one occasion encourage one of his colleagues to shoot a German prisoner and it was only the fact that an officer turned up that prevented it from happening. In an environment where people are being killed and wounded it's natural that soldiers are going to be traumatised and some are going to ignore the rules of engagement and they need to expect to be disciplined and punished for it. You can't however automatically apply the same criteria that you apply in civilian life to crimes committed in a combat zone which is why he shouldn't be facing the prospect of a life sentence.
                  "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

                  - Martin Luther King Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ANDY-J3 View Post
                    My father fought in operation Husky, the invasion of Sicily in world war 2 and he told me that he did on one occasion encourage one of his colleagues to shoot a German prisoner and it was only the fact that an officer turned up that prevented it from happening. In an environment where people are being killed and wounded it's natural that soldiers are going to be traumatised and some are going to ignore the rules of engagement and they need to expect to be disciplined and punished for it. You can't however automatically apply the same criteria that you apply in civilian life to crimes committed in a combat zone which is why he shouldn't be facing the prospect of a life sentence.
                    I totally agree. He shouldn't be facing the prospect of a life sentence.

                    I have no idea what these soldiers go through apart from I see in video footage and from what some of them have told me, and a few of those I have spoken too have since then taken their own lives, sadly. Wounds sustained in combat are not just physical wounds.

                    Combat trauma and stress need to be taken into consideration at his sentencing.
                    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                    MLK Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      in the same respect then should they take into account the stress the locals are under due to invading forces destroying their country?

                      you do know if he gets life he'll probably be out in 6 or 8 years too

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        In an ideal world they would prosecute the people responsible for 700 innocent Afghan civilians being killed by the coalition's unmanned drones or the warlords that supported the coalition's invasion in 2003 and engaged in atrocities like rape and murder. None of those people will face prosecution so seen in that context it would be pointless to impose a draconian sentence on the marine for his crime. Why even jail him for 6 or 8 years - if the MOD had dealt with the case properly he could have served a short sentence, been discharged from the army and the whole issue would be over and done with.
                        "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

                        - Martin Luther King Jr.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by tig View Post
                          in the same respect then should they take into account the stress the locals are under due to invading forces destroying their country?

                          you do know if he gets life he'll probably be out in 6 or 8 years too
                          If the locals were standing trial then I would hope their stress would be taken into consideration at sentencing, but they aren't standing trial. And please do not think I am diminishing what these people have had to suffer either, but having said that it is not only at the hands of invading forces that they have had to endure so much.

                          I'm quite sure they suffered considerable stress under the Sunni Islamic extremist group, Taliban. The same Taliban who provided refuge to the terrorist group al-Qaeda and their leader Osama bin Laden. In the 5 years they were in power, they controlled and subjugated and committed atrocities against the Afghan people, especially women. This in itself was an invasion of the country, an invasion of their human rights and liberties.

                          The Warlords who as Andy pointed out below engaged in atrocities also, back the Coalition invasion, but don't think it was for the good of the people that they did it. They are no doubt waiting for troops to withdraw so they can make another attempt at grabbing power as they did in 2002. That would add stress to the people because they would again be denied the right and ability to select their own leaders. Not to mention that some of the Warlords, especially those in the Zabul province, have an association with the Taliban. They back both sides, they are opportunists, and like the Taliban, don't give a darn about the people.

                          I've gone a little off track here. In short I should have just said, the stress of the Afghan people is not in question here, it is the combat stress of a Royal Marine that may be a deciding factor in the shooting of his prisoner, if proven.
                          Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                          MLK Jr.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            The marine, a 39 year old veteran of six tours of duty in Afghanistan got a ten year minimum sentence which for a murder charge with a mandatory life sentence is probably the best he could have hoped for but the whole situation has been badly handled by the military authorities. I have no doubt that the minute the coalition leaves Afghanistan every Taleban prisoner currently in Afghan jails will be released while this marine will still be serving a life sentence and it's a travesty.
                            "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

                            - Martin Luther King Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ANDY-J3 View Post
                              The marine, a 39 year old veteran of six tours of duty in Afghanistan got a ten year minimum sentence which for a murder charge with a mandatory life sentence is probably the best he could have hoped for but the whole situation has been badly handled by the military authorities. I have no doubt that the minute the coalition leaves Afghanistan every Taleban prisoner currently in Afghan jails will be released while this marine will still be serving a life sentence and it's a travesty.
                              I can't begin to explain how I feel about this, but you have summed it up pretty well...travesty. I am disgusted by the way this has been handled and even more disgusted that the anonymity order has been lifted. Marine A has been named and his picture plastered everywhere? The Marine and his family are now very large targets....sickening!
                              Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                              MLK Jr.

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