Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Marine A

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Marine A

    If you have been following the case of Royal Marine A who has been found guilty of murdering an injured Taliban insurgent, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. There is huge support for Marine A to be released, both in the UK, and the US. What do you think about this?
    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    MLK Jr.

  • #2
    murder is murder

    your job doesnt give you the right to commit war crimes.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Valmai View Post
      If you have been following the case of Royal Marine A who has been found guilty of murdering an injured Taliban insurgent, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. There is huge support for Marine A to be released, both in the UK, and the US. What do you think about this?
      He should be executed .
      His cohorts deserve life imprisonment.

      It showed Marine A shooting the Afghan prisoner with a 9mm pistol, and saying: "There, shuffle off this mortal coil... It's nothing you wouldn't do to us."

      He adds: "Obviously this doesn't go anywhere fellas. I just broke the Geneva Convention," to which Marine B replies: "Yeah, roger mate."
      Cold blooded murder


      Update

      Comment


      • #4
        IMHO, it’s the soldier’s ultimate moral dilemma – to play by the rules or to play tit-for-tat. However, to kill an unarmed prisoner in a premeditated act, however it’s dressed up, is murder and contravenes military as well as civilian criminal law.

        In the “fog of war”, a soldier might face an enemy who’s been trying to kill him a moment ago, who then drops their weapon and raises hands in surrender. It’s a would-be prisoner’s most dangerous moment. A moment too late, or any hesitation and the ‘surrenderee’ may well be shot dead. The enemy might have just shot the soldier’s friend a few moments ago and the soldier is in no mood to take this one prisoner. There may be discreet orders not to take prisoners on an occasion. This has been the case in warfare since organized war began and rules of engagement developed.

        However, once surrender has been accepted, the enemy soldier ceases to be a combatant and become a prisoner. Prisoners are expected to be treated with a level of behaviour which can include interrogation, but not torture or cruelty. The whole idea amongst ‘civilized’ countries is that humane treatment of their prisoners is intended to ensure that their own soldiers etc in enemy captivity are treated with similar humane treatment. However, when an enemy is not ‘civilised’ and doesn’t accept that arrangement, great frustration arises that you have to treat your prisoners with humanity while they do whatever they want to anyone they capture.

        So what do you do ? You can sink to their level and badly treat your prisoners but then, where’s the difference between you and them ? They have morally won because they’ve made you as bad as them. Your side is supposed to be showing the World the better way, the path of civilization - then you shoot your prisoners in custody – where’s your civilization then ?

        As well as that, killing them in custody just provides them with more martyrs for their cause !

        I’m really sorry, but if this soldier murdered a prisoner unlawfully, then he’s culpable in my eyes.

        It seems to me it’s better to kill as many in combat as possible (no prisoners unless for later intel) before the dust clears. Once they’re prisoners, all eyes are upon you.

        Comment


        • #5
          How it went down

          This was not a murder which happened in the heat of battle, when troops were in fear of their lives; there were eight men in the patrol and just one wounded insurgent. On the contrary, the marines sound relaxed and even amused on the audio tape, which was released last week. (Video evidence was held back by the court for fear of reprisals.) They casually discuss what to do with the man, who was seriously injured after an attack by an Apache helicopter. With a British observation balloon overhead, they drag the Afghan under tree cover, verbally abusing and kicking him. The man groans but when one marine asks whether anyone wants to give first aid to "this idiot", another replies "No" in a loud voice.

          These are some of the most highly trained men in Britain's armed forces. Yet they talk about whether to shoot the Afghan in the head, an option rejected by Marine A as too "f***ing obvious". Marine B pretends to help the wounded man in case anyone is watching, but then the overhead observers move away. Marine A finishes the Afghan with a shot to the chest, exclaiming: "There you are, shuffle off this mortal coil, you c**t. It's nothing you wouldn't do to us." The prosecution described the murder as "an execution".


          Wilfred Owen and Marine A: as far apart as you can get - Comment - Voices - The Independent
          Last edited by maxkirk; 17th November 2013, 07:45.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't condone what the lad did by any means, but I am curious as to why the other Marines got let off. If they are as culpable as they appear on video, one has to wonder if Marine A is being made the scapegoat for their involvement as well? I don't know, just throwing that out there.

            Anyway, it would be a wonderful thing if the Taliban had any moral concept of the Geneva Convention or even gave a flying cow about it, but they don't which is what sets them apart from our so called Western civilization. The thing is the war in Afghanistan is not a conventional war, and the rules of engagement are different to an all out conflict. Soldiers have to practice courageous restraint, they can only return fire when they have PID, and while they are trying to identify the persons firing upon them with guns, mortars etc they are coming under intense fire, injuries and deaths are a foregone conclusion. I can't imagine how frustrating this must be for the soldiers. I can't imagine the horrors they have witnessed.

            I am not by any means making excuses for this Royal Marines actions, I want to make that very clear to you before you decide to jump all over me, but I wanted to reach a level of understanding about the situation and what would have pushed this highly trained soldier to commit this act, I wanted to find reasons. To do that I asked a soldier I am in contact with from the US Marine Corp. He told me that no matter how highly trained a soldier is, there is a breaking point, a moment where that line is crossed in the heat of battle or moment, for some. For others, they take their lives after coming back home. Emotional and psychological trauma is the real enemy in Afghanistan, and as the young Marine told me, we civvies have absolutely no idea what it's like over there, and on that he would say no more. None of this perhaps makes what these soldiers did right, I realize this, but it certainly allowed me to see the grey areas as opposed to viewing the situation in black or white.

            So, in the midst of controversy and condemnation for Marine A, do I believe he should be executed, no, I don't. Ultimately, a price has to be extracted for crossing the line regardless of the reasons for crossing it because that is the law right? Our law anyway.

            "In reality, war is bloody, noisy, messy, the stinking stench of cordite and burnt flesh, the noise of attack helicopters overhead and 'danger close' bombing runs, the fizz of shoulder mounted rockets and whacks of RPGs, the screams of the enemy and your own "man down" or "help me please" or "I'm bleeding to death"; the petrified voices of young soldiers trying to attract a medic to come to their aid.

            Expeditionary war is a dirty, bloody, abhorrent affair that involves young men taking metal projectiles laced with fast burning metals to cause as much sharp and blunt penetrative trauma of their flesh as possible, involving occasionally a close with the enemy that involves drawing bayonets. The reader will probably be unaware that British troops have killed with the bayonet only this last year! Out of ammunition and forced into such close proximity with enemy combatants that the order to fix bayonets was given and acted upon.

            The Taliban does not like surrendering. It hides behind non-combatants, and often lays down mortally injured where it fell with hidden grenades and booby traps waiting to take you with them to their paradise.

            But what makes this story in Afghanistan all the more poignant is that we are not fighting a uniformed, gallant, courageous and disciplined enemy who wants to toil laboriously in combat by aligning itself with the Geneva Conventions or rules of war. They do not follow any rule or any law, save as for the one where it is acceptable to hide behind women and children, sit inside a mosque and use it as a fortification. Where an enemy that thinks nothing of executions in public of captured British and American soldiers or citizens, sawing their heads off whilst they are still alive and putting images all over the internet. Half the American and British soldiers I know do not want to be there, we are not fighting for the liberty of our sceptred isle, or for freedom. We are fighting a ridiculous insurgency with ridiculous odds, without much provenance to support the counter terrorism theory behind it all, and with cowards in Whitehall pretending to understand leadership. It is a game with us all pretending it is honorable and just. Well guess what? None of it is just, honourable or chivalrous. Get real people.

            During this tour, where the murder occurred, seven marines were killed with more than 40 injured, many maiming injuries. Marines A, B and C saw the deaths of their company commander and another marine, who died together in a massive IED blast.

            The Taliban hung body parts from dead and wounded Marines on trees. A mark of tribal, archaic and medieval misery not seen since Vietnam and Korea.

            Marine B said he was under attack 'every single day' and there had been 10 casualties in just one 24-hour period. He said, "My friend's legs had been put in a tree; I picked my mate's brains up. I have no good memories of that tour. My way of coping with that was to put it away in a box at the back of my head and essentially as best as I could delete it from memory."

            The Royal Marine Murderer | Kevin Godlington
            Last edited by Valmai; 17th November 2013, 18:06.
            Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
            MLK Jr.

            Comment


            • #7
              Please stick to the thread topic

              This thread is about a group of foreign invaders who murdered a citizen of Afghanistan.
              This thread is not about the Taliban or any other of the armies of Afghanistan and what they may or may not have done in other situations .


              Please stick to the thread topic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by maxkirk View Post
                This thread is about a group of foreign invaders who murdered a citizen of Afghanistan.
                This thread is not about the Taliban or any other of the armies of Afghanistan and what they may or may not have done in other situations .


                Please stick to the thread topic
                Actually, I am sticking to the thread topic. The topic is as I posed it, "If you have been following the case of Royal Marine A who has been found guilty of murdering an injured Taliban insurgent, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. There is huge support for Marine A to be released, both in the UK, and the US. What do you think about this?"

                The thread is about 3 Royal Marines, in particular Marine A, and events that occurred which ultimately resulted in the killing of a Taliban insurgent who was their prisoner. The thread is about the Taliban and the soldiers fighting in Afghanistan because without either this incident might never have happened. I expanded on my thread to look at the reality of the situation over there and what our soldiers are dealing with on a daily basis, to understand the stress and trauma they go through, and as I said below, "I am not by any means making excuses for this Royal Marines actions, I want to make that very clear to you before you decide to jump all over me, but I wanted to reach a level of understanding about the situation and what would have pushed this highly trained soldier to commit this act, I wanted to find reasons."

                All of what I said below is relevant to the thread I started, including the post by the Huff Post writer who was making a comparison between other conflicts where similar incidents have happened. It is relevant because of this, which applies to any conflict past or present, ""In reality, war is bloody, noisy, messy, the stinking stench of cordite and burnt flesh, the noise of attack helicopters overhead and 'danger close' bombing runs, the fizz of shoulder mounted rockets and whacks of RPGs, the screams of the enemy and your own "man down" or "help me please" or "I'm bleeding to death"; the petrified voices of young soldiers trying to attract a medic to come to their aid." It's relevant because some men do have a breaking point, a point where what is right or wrong becomes blurred with hatred and the need to avenge.

                This is also relevant, "But what makes this story in Afghanistan all the more poignant is that we are not fighting a uniformed, gallant, courageous and disciplined enemy who wants to toil laboriously in combat by aligning itself with the Geneva Conventions or rules of war. They do not follow any rule or any law, save as for the one where it is acceptable to hide behind women and children, sit inside a mosque and use it as a fortification. Where an enemy that thinks nothing of executions in public of captured British and American soldiers or citizens, sawing their heads off whilst they are still alive and putting images all over the internet."

                As for calling the Marines foreign invaders, they are soldiers and they don't have a choice what war they want to fight in. They are sent where their government and military tells them to go, call the governments of Australia, New Zealand, America and the UK the foreign invaders.

                Do I support the war in Afghanistan? No, I don't and I never have, but I do support the soldiers fighting over there. God know's someone needs too.
                Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                MLK Jr.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Maxwank and Twiggy, still carrying out your thuggish keyboard warrior bullying? Anyone would think you two run this site with the way you treat anyone with an opinion?!?!?. Marine A is a HERO, and you two shower of gutless cowards are a disgrace, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Valmai View Post
                    Actually, I am sticking to the thread topic. The topic is as I posed it, "If you have been following the case of Royal Marine A who has been found guilty of murdering an injured Taliban insurgent, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. There is huge support for Marine A to be released, both in the UK, and the US. What do you think about this?"

                    The thread is about 3 Royal Marines, in particular Marine A, and events that occurred which ultimately resulted in the killing of a Taliban insurgent who was their prisoner. The thread is about the Taliban and the soldiers fighting in Afghanistan because without either this incident might never have happened. I expanded on my thread to look at the reality of the situation over there and what our soldiers are dealing with on a daily basis, to understand the stress and trauma they go through, and as I said below, "I am not by any means making excuses for this Royal Marines actions, I want to make that very clear to you before you decide to jump all over me, but I wanted to reach a level of understanding about the situation and what would have pushed this highly trained soldier to commit this act, I wanted to find reasons."

                    All of what I said below is relevant to the thread I started, including the post by the Huff Post writer who was making a comparison between other conflicts where similar incidents have happened. It is relevant because of this, which applies to any conflict past or present, ""In reality, war is bloody, noisy, messy, the stinking stench of cordite and burnt flesh, the noise of attack helicopters overhead and 'danger close' bombing runs, the fizz of shoulder mounted rockets and whacks of RPGs, the screams of the enemy and your own "man down" or "help me please" or "I'm bleeding to death"; the petrified voices of young soldiers trying to attract a medic to come to their aid." It's relevant because some men do have a breaking point, a point where what is right or wrong becomes blurred with hatred and the need to avenge.

                    This is also relevant, "But what makes this story in Afghanistan all the more poignant is that we are not fighting a uniformed, gallant, courageous and disciplined enemy who wants to toil laboriously in combat by aligning itself with the Geneva Conventions or rules of war. They do not follow any rule or any law, save as for the one where it is acceptable to hide behind women and children, sit inside a mosque and use it as a fortification. Where an enemy that thinks nothing of executions in public of captured British and American soldiers or citizens, sawing their heads off whilst they are still alive and putting images all over the internet."

                    As for calling the Marines foreign invaders, they are soldiers and they don't have a choice what war they want to fight in. They are sent where their government and military tells them to go, call the governments of Australia, New Zealand, America and the UK the foreign invaders.

                    Do I support the war in Afghanistan? No, I don't and I never have, but I do support the soldiers fighting over there. God know's someone needs too.


                    If you have evidence that the Afghani soldier , the prisoner of war , the severely wounded man , who was murdered by the foreign invaders , committed any atrocities , then post that evidence .

                    Do not post off topic material .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tantalloon View Post
                      Maxwank and Twiggy, still carrying out your thuggish keyboard warrior bullying? Anyone would think you two run this site with the way you treat anyone with an opinion?!?!?. Marine A is a HERO, and you two shower of gutless cowards are a disgrace, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
                      Admin ,
                      please contact the member Tantalloon , who rather than making a meaningful contribution to this forum , continues to act in a rather trollish manner .
                      Three post in a row in this instance

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tantalloon View Post
                        Maxwank and Twiggy, still carrying out your thuggish keyboard warrior bullying? Anyone would think you two run this site with the way you treat anyone with an opinion?!?!?. Marine A is a HERO, and you two shower of gutless cowards are a disgrace, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
                        1. no one was being bullied
                        2. we are members who have opinions....they may not be the same as yours(if you ever manage to produce one) but we've got the right to say them.
                        3. marine A is a murdering coward...shooting a defenceless captured man at point blank range in the chest....is that what heros do in your world?
                        4. we've seen troll after troll on this site and your just another wee laddy who spouts a load of baws so i think it will be the door hitting you when you get booted (eventually)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Valmai View Post

                          Do I support the war in Afghanistan? No, I don't and I never have, but I do support the soldiers fighting over there. God know's someone needs too.
                          while i understand what you mean in that post the last bit confuses me.
                          you dont support the invasion but think some one has to do it?

                          the argument that "they dont follow the rules so why should we" isnt valid at all.
                          the difference is WE played the moral card by illegally invading in the first place with our highly trained soldiers only to come up against a mish mash of poorly trained locals whos only way of fighting the invaders with superior weapons is through guerilla warfare.....or are they just to lie down and die when who ever decides they want their land?

                          WE...the UK and the US trained/armed their army and supported their tactics when they where fighting the Russians but seem surprised when they fight back against "other" invaders

                          remember that the people responsible for 9/11 where from saudi arabia but no one invaded there did they.

                          imho most people calling for marine A's release are gungho idiots tbh and will support/ignore troops actions simply because its their troops but at the end of the day the law is the law and murdering people is against it regardless of the situation

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tantalloon View Post
                            Maxwank and Twiggy, still carrying out your thuggish keyboard warrior bullying? Anyone would think you two run this site with the way you treat anyone with an opinion?!?!?. Marine A is a HERO, and you two shower of gutless cowards are a disgrace, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
                            The Marine is no Hero - he committed murder and with all the coverage it does seem as if
                            was pre-meditated.
                            If you wish to think I am a coward too please do so as I have my opinion and you yours, I will
                            not be found calling you names !!!!!!

                            The name calling is NOT welcome in this forum, it has been said many times if you have a problem
                            with any member you talk to that member via messages and if that does not sort the problem
                            out you need to talk to admin for them to mediate !!!!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by maxkirk View Post
                              If you have evidence that the Afghani soldier , the prisoner of war , the severely wounded man , who was murdered by the foreign invaders , committed any atrocities , then post that evidence .

                              Do not post off topic material .
                              I wasn't implying that the Taliban insurgent had committed any atrocities. Please show me where I directly said that he had. However, there can be no denying that atrocities have occurred.

                              You seem to be having some trouble understanding what I'm trying to say so let me put it point form to make it easier.

                              1. I do not condone the actions of the Royal Marines.

                              2. I am not trying to find excuses for what they did.

                              3. I am however trying to understand a situation that caused Marine A to shoot his prisoner.

                              4. To understand some of the reasons why this might have happened, I posted another viewpoint written by a Huff Post writer. I also talked to a US Marine I am in contact with.

                              5. While I have read extensively of the war in Afghanistan, my greatest insight has been talking to the soldiers themselves. Trauma, stress, PTSD are definitely factors that would cause something like this to happen.

                              6. That is what I was bringing to the table. Everything I have offered in my posts is my attempt to understand. Very simple really.

                              Is there anything else I can say or do to help you get a better grasp of what I am saying?

                              Again, let me reiterate, I am not posting off topic material. My posts are relevant, and until ADMIN deems otherwise, I will continue to post in the same vein. So please, do not assume a role that is not yours by telling me to stick to the topic thread.
                              Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
                              MLK Jr.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X