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  • Stevenson's "nicht"

    Hi to you all!
    I'm currently trying to learn a bit of Scottish, and the written part is not so hard at the moment, but I would need some help with the pronunciation of some sounds.

    I'm reading Stevenson's "Thrawn Janet" and I was wondering of how "nicht" is pronunciated: I mean, does "ch" sound like the German in "ich", or maybe like the German "ch" in "Nacht"? Does the "i" sound like in the English "night"?

    thank you sooo much from an absolute beginner

  • #2
    "ich", or maybe like the German "ch" in "Nacht"? Does the "i" sound like in the English "night"?

    The "i" is the sound you'll get in "sit" or "pit".

    I think that your question confused me at first, because when I learned German, I was taught to use the same "ch" sound for both "ich" and "nacht". However, I *think* (although I stand to be corrected) that it's a regional thing in German.

    To describe this without an audible example is difficult. However, you can approximate this sound by trying to make a heavy "H" nearer the back of your throat.
    "ni-hhh-t."

    It's similar to the sound you will hear in "Loch", however because the vowel sound preceding it is further forward, it tends not be quite so heavy. (Although, no doubt someone will have a differing view)


    I'll hunt around and see if I can find an example for you to listen to...

    Comment


    • #3
      great!

      Thank you so much!

      I suppose I can now pronunciate it decently at least!

      As for German, I was taught that the sound from ich to Nacht is a wee different: in "Nacht" you use the back part o the tongue, in "ich" the sound is less guttural and depends on the forward part o the tongue: it's more similar to a "sshhh" sound.

      Thanks again

      Comment


      • #4
        http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/histor...y/haggis.shtml

        If you click the "Listen" link - you'll need RealPlayer - you should be able to hear the poem being recited. (I hope - I can't listen to it as I'm at work at present)

        Listen for the verse that has:

        "His knife see rustic Labour dight,
        An' cut you up wi' ready sleight,
        Trenching your gushing entrails bright,"

        dight, sleight and bright - all rhyme with "nicht"

        Enjoy.

        Comment


        • #5
          It just occurs to me to say:

          "dight, sleight and bright - all rhyme with "nicht""

          They SHOULD all rhyme with nicht!


          also try this link:

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/histor..._shanter.shtml

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ScabbyDouglas
            It just occurs to me to say:
            "dight, sleight and bright - all rhyme with "nicht""
            They SHOULD all rhyme with nicht!

            also try this link:
            http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/histor..._shanter.shtml
            You are, in true English colonial terms, describing Low German words spoken in Teutonic Lowland Scotland which are not, nor have ever been Gaidhlig words,words in our true Scots language.

            Comment


            • #7
              You are, in true English colonial terms, describing Low German words spoken in Teutonic Lowland Scotland which are not, nor have ever been Gaidhlig words,words in our true Scots language.

              Rainy, as you should be (but are evidently not) aware, the land we recognise now as "Scotland" is and always has been a patchwork of different ethnic and linguistic groups overlapping in various combinations. There have been, as you say, Germanic influences, Scandinavian (also Germanic), Goidelic, Brythonic and these are only the ones we know about.

              It's pretty clear that the Picts and Britons pre-dated the Gaels in what we now call Scotland, so picking Gaelic as "our true Scots language" is completely arbitrary and meaningless. There are large swathes of Scotland where Gaelic was not pre-eminent. So away and take a powder, eh?

              And anyway - Necramater asked a question about Stevenson - which I attempted to answer. You are off-topic.

              And wrong.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Necramater
                Hi to you all!
                I'm currently trying to learn a bit of Scottish, and the written part is not so hard at the moment, but I would need some help with the pronunciation of some sounds.

                I'm reading Stevenson's "Thrawn Janet" and I was wondering of how "nicht" is pronunciated: I mean, does "ch" sound like the German in "ich", or maybe like the German "ch" in "Nacht"? Does the "i" sound like in the English "night"?

                thank you sooo much from an absolute beginner

                Good luck in your efforts to learn Scottish-English, called Inglis before c.1500

                Phonetic Description of Scottish Language and Dialects may be of interest to you.
                http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/INTRO/intro2.php?num=02

                This otherwise splendid Traditional Scottish Songs website ought to be re-named Traditional Scottish-English Songs.
                http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_index.htm

                I also recommend posts by Steaphan in the Oor language thread starting perhaps with his post dated 19th Aug. 2003.
                http://www.scotland.com/forums/showt...threadid=15452

                Comment


                • #9
                  Fur masel, ah'm gettin jist a wee bit scunnert wi this recent manifestation ah rampant an aggressive Teuchterism.

                  Ah'm sorry that it seems tae upset ye that Scotland is a multi-lingual, and multi-dialect society.
                  Ah share yer concerns fur the future ah Gaelic.
                  Ah have never, as far as ah know, claimed that modern Scots is a distinct leid, although ah know plenty folk that wid say so.

                  Ye're still aff-topic.
                  An ye're still wrang.

                  Dry yer eyes, wull ye?

                  Ah don't in any wey deny the Germanic an Scandinavian origins ah Lallans (since ye take such exception tae the use ah the word "Scots") - but seein as we're oan that subject, ye'd be bound tae acknowledge that Scots Gaelic is surely jist a dialect ah Irish?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ScabbyDouglas
                    Fur masel, ah'm gettin jist a wee bit scunnert wi this recent manifestation ah rampant an aggressive Teuchterism.
                    Ah'm sorry that it seems tae upset ye that Scotland is a multi-lingual, and multi-dialect society.
                    Ah share yer concerns fur the future ah Gaelic.
                    Ah have never, as far as ah know, claimed that modern Scots is a distinct leid, although ah know plenty folk that wid say so.
                    Ye're still aff-topic.
                    An ye're still wrang.
                    Dry yer eyes, wull ye?
                    Ah don't in any wey deny the Germanic an Scandinavian origins ah Lallans (since ye take such exception tae the use ah the word "Scots") - but seein as we're oan that subject, ye'd be bound tae acknowledge that Scots Gaelic is surely jist a dialect ah Irish?
                    My post was addressed to Necrometer.
                    Let`s face it, pal, you have not read three detailed websites in a mere fourteen minutes. You are a typical scabby Teutonic chancer.
                    The original Argyll Gaelic-speaking Scots did indeed colonise northern Ireland.
                    http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/dunadd.htm

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      English Scots wha hae wi' Wallace bled
                      Teutons wham Bruce hae aftimes led,
                      Welcome tae your gory bed
                      Or tae Victory



                      That bit on the archeological finds in Argyle actually was interesting.

                      Otherwise I agree with ScabbyDouglas - and I am no lowlander.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Rainy said "Let`s face it, pal, you have not read three detailed websites in a mere fourteen minutes. "

                        Absolutely correct. Do you know what? I didn't even read one of them. But why on Earth are you expending so much of your energy on this point?

                        If you want to raise another thread which makes the assertion that Q-Celtic-speaking "Scots" colonised Ireland then that's fine. It is still absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

                        Are you sure you're well?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          First, I wad like to thank you: you're a'sae helpfu!
                          I now hae a basis I can start frae ... here in Italy sources are scanty!

                          Second: one day I'll dive into Gaelic (and bother you again fro help)... it sounds far too gorgeous not to!

                          (hoping the few words I wrote above are correct!)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Stevenson`s "nicht"

                            Originally posted by ScabbyDouglas
                            Rainy said "Let`s face it, pal, you have not read three detailed websites in a mere fourteen minutes. "
                            Absolutely correct. Do you know what? I didn't even read one of them. But why on Earth are you expending so much of your energy on this point?
                            If you want to raise another thread which makes the assertion that Q-Celtic-speaking "Scots" colonised Ireland then that's fine. It is still absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
                            Are you sure you're well?


                            By admitting that you have not read the Phonetics website you are admitting that you are prejudiced. Don`t forget, a poster is intent on learning the language brought north by the Angles of Northumbria.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "By admitting that you have not read the Phonetics website you are admitting that you are prejudiced."

                              What utter pish.

                              I didn't go and read your very helpful link on phonetics because I studied linguistics as part of a degree course on speech therapy. One of the major problems in using phonetic symbols to represent speech is that they mean nothing to the typical non-techical person. And I wouldn't expect anyone to read a lengthy explanation on phonetics when I could answer the question in fairly straightforward layman's terminology.

                              I have no problem with the links you posted, Rainy, old pal. However your attitude does leave something to be desired.

                              Furthermore, having gone and looked at the pages you linked to on phonetics, I'm astounded that you even volunteered them as being in any way relevant to the original enquiry. It was nothing to do with what was asked, but rather it was about some personal monomania of your own.

                              Keep taking the tablets.

                              [Edited by ScabbyDouglas on 20th November 2004 at 00:53]

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