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ITS OFFICIAL - SCOTS IS A LANGUAGE

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  • ITS OFFICIAL - SCOTS IS A LANGUAGE

    ITS OFFICIAL - SCOTS IS A LANGUAGE
    Officially - Scots is indeed a regional minority language.

    According to the Scottish Parliament on a page on their website, which is viewable at: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/pages/new...p_SEtc009.aspx Scots is indeed a language. And its official ! And I quote, "The Scots language is recognised officially under the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages, which the UK Government signed in 2000."

    On the Council of Europe website, viewable at: http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en...s/Html/148.htm
    you will see their defininition of Regional Minority Languages. Again, here is the quote:

    Part I – General provisions
    Article 1 – Definitions
    For the purposes of this Charter:
    "regional or minority languages" means languages that are:
    traditionally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the State's population; and
    different from the official language(s) of that State;
    it does not include either dialects of the official language(s) of the State or the languages of migrants;

    Obviously if Scots is a regional minority language then according to this definition above then Scots cannot be a dialect of English.

    I wonder if this will be enough information for some who write in these forums?


  • #2
    The language/dialect thing is a 'how long is a piece of string question'

    In Spain Valeciano is counted as a language, which was done partly to separate it from Catalan for political reasons.


    (Two can play at George Orwell quotes)
    "In this country I don’t think it is enough realized—I myself had no idea of it until a few years ago—that Scotland has a case against England."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by bktheman
      ITS OFFICIAL - SCOTS IS A LANGUAGE
      Officially - Scots is indeed a regional minority language
      I believe I have made exactly that point repeatedly on this very site.

      I've had it! I am not coming back until you glaikt sumphs tak yer fingers oot.
      If Charlie gets his English throne
      We Scots will tell him "Pog mo thon"

      Comment


      • #4
        But it's LOWLAND-Scots, not "Scots". Scotland had TWO languages not just that one.


        (Two can play at George Orwell quotes)
        "In this country I don’t think it is enough realized—I myself had no idea of it until a few years ago—that Scotland has a case against England."

        Comment


        • #5
          You're Right

          You're totally right ScottishRepublican.

          The reason I said Scots language is because that is the term used on the Scottish governments website - not my words. But then again, our government isn't known for its accuracy (as in estimating the cost of the new Scottish Parliament building for example)

          By the way, do you know if there is a specific Gaelic word or term for Lowland Scots (other than Beurla) since as we have established above, Lowland Scots is a language in its own right and not a dialect of Enlgish.

          If there isn't a term in Gaelic, isn't there now a need for one?

          Alba gu bràth.

          Comment


          • #6
            The specific Scottish Gaelic term for Lowland Scots or Inglis or Scottish English is A`Bheurla Ghallda.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by bktheman
              ITS OFFICIAL - SCOTS IS A LANGUAGE
              Officially - Scots is indeed a regional minority language.

              According to the Scottish Parliament on a page on their website, which is viewable at: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/pages/new...p_SEtc009.aspx Scots is indeed a language. And its official ! And I quote, "The Scots language is recognised officially under the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages, which the UK Government signed in 2000."

              On the Council of Europe website, viewable at: http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en...s/Html/148.htm
              you will see their defininition of Regional Minority Languages. Again, here is the quote:

              Part I – General provisions
              Article 1 – Definitions
              For the purposes of this Charter:
              "regional or minority languages" means languages that are:
              traditionally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the State's population; and
              different from the official language(s) of that State;
              it does not include either dialects of the official language(s) of the State or the languages of migrants;

              Obviously if Scots is a regional minority language then according to this definition above then Scots cannot be a dialect of English.

              I wonder if this will be enough information for some who write in these forums?

              I am trying to make sense out of this. Scots is a language because some Eurocrats say so?

              Therefore it must surely follow that if these same Eurocrats in a couple of years time change their minds Scots will cease to exist?

              Thats a very strange logic.

              Comment


              • #8
                it's official

                Originally posted by Monco
                [QUOTE

                I am trying to make sense out of this. Scots is a language because some Eurocrats say so?

                Therefore it must surely follow that if these same Eurocrats in a couple of years time change their minds Scots will cease to exist?

                Thats a very strange logic.

                Yes, strange but true. A language is a dialect with an army and a navy. (I wish I'd said that.)
                "if
                a toktaboot
                thi trooth
                lik wanna yoo
                scruff yi
                widny thingk
                it wuz troo."

                Comment


                • #9
                  But "A' Bheurla Ghallda" just means 'Lowland English'; and if the Scots (as in the Galldachd) are going to say "pog mo thon" to Charlie, then they're speaking Gaelic.

                  I agree with the Eurocrat thing: if that's their logic, then why isn't Geordie or Scouse a language? Is it because Scotland now has a 'Parliament' (as in 'talking shop'?) and they're playing politics with the Scots, whereas Newcastle/Durham or Liverpool don't?

                  What did the Galldachd speak before they spoke A' Bheurla Ghallda? In Galloway they spoke Gaelic, and before that Strathclyde Welsh. What about the other bits, after they stopped speaking Pictish or 'Welsh', that is? Any ideas?
                  Cum Gàidhlig Beò – Keep Gaelic alive

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    For those of you who are confused

                    Let me make it clear

                    I didn't say anything about other versions of English not being languages - they very well might be - but all I am pointing out to you is that Lowland Scots is now a "recognised" or official language.

                    Just because some eurocrat has decided this now, doesn't mean that Lowland Scots wasn't a language before - nor does it mean if they change their minds it will cease to be a language in the future.

                    There may well be some polical reasons for the recognition of Lowland Scots as a language. Don't forget, Scotland is still a nation of the United Kingdom, and was at various points in its history a separate country with its own language, sovereignty, culture and identity.

                    With respect, Geordies (and I love them all) as well as Scousers (God bless 'em) all support England when it comes to football. Whether or not Geordie or Scouse is defined as a language is up to the English parliament. So yes your right, it is political - but then again - what isn't political?

                    By the way, Scotland does have an army - "The Tartan Army"

                    Hoots mon, there's a moose loose aboot this hoose!!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by daibhidh_macshealbhaich
                      I agree with the Eurocrat thing: if that's their logic, then why isn't Geordie or Scouse a language? Is it because Scotland now has a 'Parliament' (as in 'talking shop'?) and they're playing politics with the Scots, whereas Newcastle/Durham or Liverpool don't?





                      Scouse and Geordie,unlike Scots were never the language of the university,law or royal court.I have a Scots dialect dictionary which lists over 10 000 distinctive Scots words and phrases which can't compare with English dialects that perhaps have a few hundred words and phrases which are recognisably distinct from standard English.









                      What did the Galldachd speak before they spoke A' Bheurla Ghallda? In Galloway they spoke Gaelic, and before that Strathclyde Welsh. What about the other bits, after they stopped speaking Pictish or 'Welsh', that is? Any ideas?

                      In Lothian and the Borders the Northumbrian dialect of English replaced the Brythonic tongue but languages and dialects constantly evolve and by the late middle ages the seperate and distinct language of Scots had emerged as the most widely spoken language in the lowlands and was spoken as far north as Aberdeen.









                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by daibhidh_macshealbhaich
                        What did the Galldachd speak before they spoke A' Bheurla Ghallda? In Galloway they spoke Gaelic, and before that Strathclyde Welsh. What about the other bits, after they stopped speaking Pictish or 'Welsh', that is? Any ideas?
                        Picts had two languages: a basic pCeltic brought over by Gaulish ancestors, and something much earlier (pre-Celtic) that wasn't even Indo-European, preserved in early inscriptions. It's likely that the two languages co-existed -- Picts used the older tongue for scholarship and bardic/religious stuff. The pCeltic was an early form of Welsh, as you suggest. So it was a Brythonic, as opposed to Gaelic one (qCeltic, Goidelic)

                        South of the Firth and Clyde, pCeltic predated "English." From place names around the coast it's obvious that Norse was spoken here and there, at least for a time.

                        BTW, I was always fascinated by the phrase a' Bheurla Ghallda. I'd always read it as "the language of strangers." Am I deluded? Davoc?
                        "if
                        a toktaboot
                        thi trooth
                        lik wanna yoo
                        scruff yi
                        widny thingk
                        it wuz troo."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "Scouse and Geordie,unlike Scots were never the language of the university,law or royal court.I have a Scots dialect dictionary which lists over 10 000 distinctive Scots words and phrases which can't compare with English dialects that perhaps have a few hundred words and phrases which are recognisably distinct from standard English."

                          What are they calling distinctive though?

                          I tend to think Geordie is most of the way to being a dialect of Lowland Scots rather than Southern English

                          "What did the Galldachd speak before they spoke A' Bheurla Ghallda? In Galloway they spoke Gaelic, and before that Strathclyde Welsh. What about the other bits, after they stopped speaking Pictish or 'Welsh', that is? Any ideas?"

                          A lot of it spoke Gaidhlig too... places like Buchan, Angus, Killearn, Auchterarder, Dunblane etc. Most (all?) of Caithness spoke Gaidhlig, and it survived there into the 20th century.

                          "In Lothian and the Borders the Northumbrian dialect of English replaced the Brythonic tongue but languages and dialects constantly evolve and by the late middle ages the seperate and distinct language of Scots had emerged as the most widely spoken language in the lowlands and was spoken as far north as Aberdeen."

                          The only problem with this is what are the Lowlands. People assume there is some fixed line running round from Nairn to Dumbarton in a boomerang shape, but this isn't the case.


                          (Two can play at George Orwell quotes)
                          "In this country I don’t think it is enough realized—I myself had no idea of it until a few years ago—that Scotland has a case against England."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Of the thousands of words listed in the Scots dialect dictionary-New Lanark,2002; there are only a minority that I can find that have any resemblance to English words.It was written by an MA in linguistics so I would assume that he's done his research and that the words listed are genuine Scots words.I think most Scouse and Geordie words will be recognisably corruptions of English words and the sheer volume of distinctive Scots words and phrases sets it apart from English dialects and even many of those words which can be recognised as English have subtly different meanings in Scots.I've used the term lowlands but it would be correct to say that Inglis or Scots spread to those areas of Scotland which came under the influence of the royal court and the Scottish/Norman aristocracy and while there were no doubt several enclaves of Gaelic to be found throughout the country by the early modern period it had been replaced by Scots as the dominant tongue in all areas of the country except the north west highlands and islands.John of Fordoun writing in the fourteenth century states that only the people of the highlands and islands spoke "the Scottish language" (Gaelic) which doesn't suggest that its use was widespread in any other areas of the country.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Problem with

                              Raingeanach - isn't there a logical problem with using A`Bheurla Ghallda to describe both Lowland Scots and Scottish English. The two are entirely different. How does a Scottish Gaelic speaker differentiate between the two? Or is no distinction made?

                              I understand the word Albais is sometimes used to refer to Scots.

                              Comment

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