No announcement yet.

Did Belgic Celts settle in southern Scotland?

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Did Belgic Celts settle in southern Scotland?

    I have a real mystery concerning my brother's Y DNA. It is haplogroup I1, leading one to suspect it was Germanic, but it is a particularly old and particularly small clade of I1, leading one to think it could have been located in places that are now Germanic, where Celts lived in Celtic times. Particularly it could have been located in the Netherlands and what is now Belgium when the Belgic Celts migrated to England.

    Also, the Belgic Celts were allegedly part German. The language of Wales is still part German, though it is totally unclear how that happened since Belgic Celts allegedly did not go near Wales. It also isn't clear what is meant by the notion that hte Belgic Celts were part Germanic. There were genetically distinct groups of "Germans"; the I2b1 people of the Rhineland, who got to Britain with every wave of migration that got there starting with the Neolithic megatomb people, and there were the Scandinavian I1 people, who are more likely to be associated with a series confined to Denmark and southern Scandinavia and the region on the north sea between Denmark and Frisia, which may or may not have spread southward along hte coast as far as modern Belgium by Belgian Celtic times.

    Both the Rhineland people and the Jutland people were "German". I don't know if both kinds of people spoke "German" languages, as I am given to believe that the German languages were a product of the Scandinavian culture and they should have spread with haplogroup I1 people, whenever it was that they really spread.

    One other thing; at the time when Germanic languages and people were diffusing out of Denmark and starting to spread, Denmark was fully Celtic. At the least it was ruled by extremely militarily aggressive Celts. Actually, these particular Celts, the Cimbri and I think the Teutones or whatever, marched south in two long lines, tried to conquer the Roman empire, failed, and diffused, never returning to Jutland, which should have spread haplogroup I1 through Europe if the German/ Celtic people of Jutland carried I1 at the time, and which left the way open for Angles, Saxons, Jutes and others to move southward, and leaves one wondering if haplogroup I1 wasn't bottled up in their territory in Scandinavia, until the destruction of the Cimbri and the Whatevers. Haplogroup I1 survived to the present day at all only through isolation in the sparsely populated forest zone.

    What I can find suggests that particular tribes of Belgic Celts settled along the eastern coast of England and in inland areas that were selectively exactly the same areas that were later favored by the first Saxon settlers. Two previous waves of Celts had come to Britain, and the earlier, Goidelic speaking wave encompassed Ireland. The later wave, probably around 500 BC, encompassed England and Scotland.

    Belgic Celts are made out as not having gotten very far at all.

    The puzzle is that my brother belongs to a Y DNA cluster, that is found in two sorts of places. First, it is found where you'd expect to find a 1500 to 1700 year old cluster; in the Netherlands, and in parts of England where the earliest Saxons settled, and not elsewhere in England.

    But the cluster is found in the same numbers, and with greater genetic variation, across southern and south central Scotland, particularly in parts of southwestern Scotland that weren't particularly favored by Saxons at all, nor by the Flemish who immigrated in large numbers in medieval times.

    My brother's cluster seem to have most immediately belonged to the cotter class, not sheriffs or aristocrats, or bishops, or whatever that DID make it to western Scotland, and not exactly in large numbers.

    The mystery gets deeper. My brother's cluster has an apparent parent cluster, that has most of the distinctive markers that my brother's cluster has, but some had not yet developed. Even though this cluster predates the Saxons in Great Britain, and even though my brother's cluster logically originated on the continent, I simply can't find the parent cluster on the mainland. Real mystery is, two thirds of it is located in southeastern Scotland. Half of it is there even in project results tables that don't have anything in particular to do with Scotland.

    Since the continental representative of my brother's cluster is from southeastern Holland, there is nothing to prove that the cluster was not Celtic.

    Another thing that leads me wondering is that the entire, widely dispersed, cluster, seems lacking in sexual mores. The entire cluster is a walking nonpaternity event. There is no young group within it that isn't composed of nonsurname matches, sometimes as many as eight surnames over 300 years. This simply isn't seen in people of Saxon ancestry or any other Indo-European ancestry. In fact, it is exceedingly rare in genetic genealogy to see anything like this. Only Celts systematically slept around, and I think that some of their descendants among the Scotch Irish were still doing it at the time of the Civil War. Mind you, explaining which of the Scotch Irish were staunch Calvinists and which slept with everything that walked is beyond me. It does look as if both phenomena were very real.

    Therefore I need to know if Belgic Celts settled in southern Scotland, and if so, who and what they were. I mean, what groups of Belgic Celts settled in Scotland and where did they settle.

    Also, was there any later point in time when sufficient groups of Belgic Celts, Saxons, or anyone else ought to have been racing across the Scottish border to account for this.

    There are problems of arguing that such a thing happened during Roman times, unless the Romans selectively drove Belgic Celts north of all the peoples who lived in England. It shouldn't have worked. It took the Romans only a few more years to conquer southern Scotland, and from that time they held it securely, in a manner that was even better organized than in England. Only Galloway, in southwestern Scotland, was free of them, and while that area could easily have experienced founder effects from the south and definitely experienced founder effects during this time, that would not have been possible if the region had been overrun by large numbers of people, nor did Galloway ever experience that kind of disorder. The Romans seemed content to isolate Galloway and then leave it alone except to trade with them, since, isolated from neighboring Celtic tribes, they just weren't able to make trouble, and the region seems to have been peaceful and bucolic.

    On the other hand, Galloway was sparsely populated and peaceful. The Isles-Scottish haplotype originated in Galloway during this period. My brother's cluster and its kin appear to be found more often in Southwestern Scotland than elsewhere. There is a methodological problem that forces one to figure that if the cluster is found elsewhere in southern Scotland, which it is, then it is more than likely equally distrubuted across southern Scotland as long as one has no particular reason to think it was really a southwestern phenomenon. The problem is that most people of Scottish background who do Y DNA testing are Scotch-Irish, and that way skews the geographical distribution.

    Thanks alot!