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Interesting article on the Anglicisation of the Scots

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  • Interesting article on the Anglicisation of the Scots

    Gaelic In Scottish History and Culture

  • #2
    Would that be the lowland Scots who were, in the words of the author "themselves victims of English aggression"? Would the English aggressively victimise a people who were as you claim Anglicised? Obviously once again you are taking liberties and putting your own spin on a text in order to promote your own agenda. The author is doing nothing more than making a forthright defence of Gaelic culture.
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

    - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    • #3
      I take it the War of the Roses was an ethnic conflict?

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      • #4
        There's no such thing as the war of the roses. It's plural, "wars" of the roses and it was a series of dynastic cionflicts and nothing to do with ethnicity. It seems to me however that for the English to be aggressively victimising lowland Scots that would suggest that far from being Anglicised, lowlanders had their own unique sense of Scottish cultural identity which they were determined to preserve in spite of English interference in Scottish affairs.
        "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

        - Martin Luther King Jr.

        Comment


        • #5
          Why do you take it so personally? Whatb is wrong with the idea that some people living in Scotland at one time, percieved themselves to be English? It should be of interest to everyone interested in Scottish history.

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          • #6
            I don't take it personally at all. I just try and be objective and factual when dealing with Scottish history. I feel you have an agenda which you want to promote which is fair enough but whether what you are arguing for is backed up by any historical evidence is doubtful.
            "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

            - Martin Luther King Jr.

            Comment


            • #7
              Then why not stick to discussing the article rather than the poster?

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              • #8
                I am discussing the article and whether it supports the premise made in your opening post regarding the alleged Anglicisation of the Scots.
                "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

                - Martin Luther King Jr.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sgoinneil View Post
                  Whatb is wrong with the idea that some people living in Scotland at one time, percieved themselves to be English? It should be of interest to everyone interested in Scottish history.
                  theres a thousands of people in Scotland who think of themselves as English.
                  being english usually helps.

                  where are you from SG?

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                  • #10
                    Sgoinneil seems to suggest that when medieval Scots happened to speak the English language, that somehow resulted in them becoming Anglicised and embracing English culture, which prevented them from having a clear sense of Scottish identity but obviously that is wrong. If you look at modern Switzerlend there is no Swiss language and never has been but do the Swiss who speak a German dialect identify themselves as being German? Of course not and neither did the Scots of the middle ages identify themselves as being English just because they happened to speak the Inglis language. Cultural and national identity isn't defined solely by language.
                    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

                    - Martin Luther King Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Swiss minorities often resent each other and their dialects and there is often tension particularly between German and French speakers. It is quite possible to be loyal to a national govt or king etc and feel ethnically different and there is plenty of evidence from English sources to suggest this was the case in the South East of the Scottish kingdom at the time. The Swiss were brought together due to religious persecution andearlier imperial harrasment from the Hapsburgs. It doesnt mean that originally they thought of themselves as the same people. Dauvit Brown wrote an interesting article on the development of a Scottish identity due to similair pressures and how feudal loyalt turned into a broader sense of the ethnic term, ie English Scots changed how they saw themselves because of opposition to the aggressing power.

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                      • #12
                        I disagree because what you have in Scotland are predominantly Anglo-Saxon immigrants many of whom fled persecution after the Norman conquest and you then see the emergence of an Anglo-Norman culture in England. Was there such a thing as an English cultural and national identity before the later middle ages by which time the Anglo-Saxon descendents in the south of Scotland were fully integrated into the community and aware of their unique Scottish identity.
                        "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

                        - Martin Luther King Jr.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There would have been a strong sense of resentment of the Normans. This comes across in the tales like Robin Hood (some of which were written in Scots!) by Andrew of Wyntoun for example.

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                          • #14
                            I think there is a knee-jerk reaction to the word English in relation to Scots who spoke Middle English. It says nothing abiout whether they would be loyal to a foreign government. I dont see why it should.

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                            • #15
                              But surely the phrase "Anglicisation of the Scots" doesn't suggest that you are referring specifically to language. When we talk about Romanisation of the Britons we think of them embracing Roman culture and becoming Romano-Britons. By the same token when you talk about Anglicisation of the Scots it conveys an image of them rejecting their unique sense of Scottish national identity and becoming Anglo-Scots which would be historically inaccurate.
                              "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

                              - Martin Luther King Jr.

                              Comment

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