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  • Bruce and Ulster

    Just reading a book [near finished] by Nigel Tranter 'The Steps To The Empty Throne. An excerpt from the book reads
    [Comyn speaking to Bruce]

    ''Aye--traitor,as I have ever known you! Sold to Edward, always Sold,for his favour. And his Ulsterwoman,de Burgh...!''

    In the book Bruce is married To Elizabeth de Burgh. Was he?
    Was she an Ulsterwoman? She is called Lady Ulster sometimes.

    It then goes to say that the stone that Edward took to England was the wrong one and Bruce is duly crowned on the proper one which had been hidden away.

    It then says,

    ''Next day, therefore, the King of Scots as least was enthroned on the Stone of Destiny,even if there was no MacDuff to place him theron. To the defening clamour of trumpet fanfares the new monarch strode alone up through the crowded church to the high altar, and there seated himself upon the ancient Stone, which legand claimed to have been Jacob's pillow in the wilderness, brought to Ireland by Scota, Pharaoh's daughter,from whom the Scota took their name,but which was more likely to have been the portable altar of a travelling saint, possibly Columba himself.''

    There is an Scotland/Ulster connection again,
    With the Scota and Columbia both being mentioned. Is this all fiction. Married to an Ulsterwoman, The Stone of Destiny etc or is it based on fact.



  • #2
    I don't know the answer - but I had the book in my bookcase, so after an earlier discussion we had I took it out and started to read it.

    I don't know how accurate it is - but it certainly makes for good reading! His books on the Jacobite and Civil war periods seem to have a high degree of accuracy, but they are much more recent history, and he would have undoubtedly had access to more refernce material.

    Don't tell me how it ends!

    Comment


    • #3
      Ha, No I wouldn't do that I'm not that bad. But he is good,
      and he seems to know a lot of the background to the events,
      obviously some of it must be 'made up' But I would still think a lot of it has some historical fact in it.

      What about the spider ha, is that true. I mind a teacher at
      primary school telling us about it. The story here, is that it was Rathlin Island where Bruce hid out,and his encounter with the spider happened.

      Maybe Nigel will enlighten us in the other two of the trilogy. Well I'll have to head off to bed soon,but will finish the book first. Cheers, Laeg.

      Comment


      • #4
        Bruce never referred to Ulster as a separate nation, and fought to drive out the English invaders and put his brother Edward on the Irish throne.

        He also referred to Scotland and Ireland as having the same language and he wasn't referring to English or Crouton.


        (Two can play at George Orwell quotes)
        "In this country I don’t think it is enough realized—I myself had no idea of it until a few years ago—that Scotland has a case against England."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Scottish_Republican
          Bruce never referred to Ulster as a separate nation, and fought to drive out the English invaders and put his brother Edward on the Irish throne.

          He also referred to Scotland and Ireland as having the same language and he wasn't referring to English or Crouton.






          Well I would'nt think Bruce would be a great historian[to busy fightin battles ha] Maybe he did know about the Kings of Ulster, and their struggle against their Southron neighbour [he was in the same boat] But Ulster's struggle, had went on long before Bruce's time,so its doubtful if he
          knew about it. He had other things to concern him.

          What language was Bruce referring to?

          Comment


          • #6
            Okay where to begin?

            Scottish Republican is correct. Edward de Bruce with between 6 to 8 thousand Scottish soldiers landed in the north of Ireland in the very early 14th century. The Irish clans rallied to Edward de Bruce. The ensuing conflict was savage.

            I believe Edward was finally defeated at the battle of Drogheda.


            As to the stone of destiny, my father (a huge Scottish history buff) often referred to it. Traditon had it, that it was brought to Scotland from Ireland where it had been kept for many years. I cannot really add anymore to it.

            Remember Galiage Scotland and Irelands culture were more or less the same up until the mid 17th century when the geographical bridge was finally broken.

            Comment


            • #7
              Edward Bruce has been described by one Irish author as "a destroyer of Ireland in general,both of English and Gael"- A history of Ireland-Curtis.1950.It should be remembered that the main motivation for Bruce involvement in Ireland was to relieve pressure on the Scots by drawing English troops into a conflict with the Irish.Even had Bruce been succesful the outcome would not have been Irish independence but the replacement of Anglo-Norman feudalism with Scots-Norman feudalism.


              Comment


              • #8
                [QUOTE]Originally posted by ANDY-J2
                [B] Edward Bruce has been described by one Irish author as "a destroyer of Ireland in general,both of English and Gael"- A history of Ireland-Curtis.1950.It should be remembered that the main motivation for Bruce involvement in Ireland was to relieve pressure on the Scots by drawing English troops into a conflict with the Irish.Even had Bruce been succesful the outcome would not have been Irish independence but the replacement of Anglo-Norman feudalism with Scots-Norman feudalism.






                I don't know to much about Edward in Ireland. But, based on what I do know, I would say you would be right Andy-J2

                I do know he was killed in Ireland,and that Robert was over with him for awhile.

                Comment


                • #9
                  What language was Bruce referring to?
                  Gaelic


                  (Two can play at George Orwell quotes)
                  "In this country I don’t think it is enough realized—I myself had no idea of it until a few years ago—that Scotland has a case against England."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Scottish_Republican
                    What language was Bruce referring to?
                    Gaelic
                    How's about English?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Laeg,


                      Why don't you keep readnig....my I suggest "Peter Pan"...its' about this made-up land (you should know all about that!)

                      Slan, Duber

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Bruce and Ulster

                        Bruce's second marriage was to Elizabeth de Buurgh in 1302.She was the daughter of Richard de Burgh earl of Ulster.The earl of Ulster was a staunch supporter of King Edward I.It is suggested that the marriage was Edward I's idea.This year, 1302, was the year Bruce defected to to the English and Edward.Bruce had four children in this marriage, two boys and two girls,of the boys, one died in infancy and the other, David born 5th March 1324 was the king's heir.
                        Buaidh no bas

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Bruce and Ulster

                          Originally posted by Somarlidh
                          Bruce's second marriage was to Elizabeth de Buurgh in 1302.She was the daughter of Richard de Burgh earl of Ulster.The earl of Ulster was a staunch supporter of King Edward I.It is suggested that the marriage was Edward I's idea.This year, 1302, was the year Bruce defected to to the English and Edward.Bruce had four children in this marriage, two boys and two girls,of the boys, one died in infancy and the other, David born 5th March 1324 was the king's heir.


                          Thanks for the info Somarlidh.

                          There was also a mention of a king or chief called Canmore and the old Celtic church, and that Canmore's wife cajoled
                          Canmore into adapting the Roman church.

                          It says in that book that Bruce's life was saved by an Englishman.

                          Wallace was in it too,it was Bruce who knighted him[according to this book]. Is this true?

                          Wallace came across as more of a guerilla fighter. Hiding out in Etterick forest.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Laeg
                            Originally posted by Scottish_Republican
                            What language was Bruce referring to?
                            Gaelic
                            How's about English?
                            Bruce was referring to Gaelic, not English.

                            I suggest you read some historical documents, you and your friends (if they aren't in fact your alter egos) here, would be well advised to do so.

                            As for these days, some of us can speak both. My Irish Gaelic is mediocre though.


                            (Two can play at George Orwell quotes)
                            "In this country I don’t think it is enough realized—I myself had no idea of it until a few years ago—that Scotland has a case against England."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Re: Bruce and Ulster

                              Originally posted by Laeg
                              [Wallace was in it too,it was Bruce who knighted him[according to this book]. Is this true?

                              I don't think Bruce would have Knighted Wallace who was fighting to put John Baliol back on the Scottish throne.Wallace was therefore a hindrance to Bruce's ambitions.

                              Comment

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