Watch this video

[DistantCelt]

Pele

I must say, i havn't seen much of Pele. Used to follow football pretty regularly till 1999 when i moved to North America, where their idea of football is a buncha men grabbing each other's arses while looking like a comical version of medeival knights in styrofoam and plastic armour. I had previously seen maybe 10-15 seconds of Pele in a few 'highlights' and I used to think that Maradona is Pele's equal, if not better. After watching this 10 min footage of Pele between the age of 17 and 24, i am left flabbergasted.. To compose as many magical moments for Maradona, it would take his entire career and even then his 'spectacular goals/playmaking' wernt remotely as frequent as Pele's.
Now i am convinced - Pele is the king. Maradona, Best, Zico, Socrates, Ronaldo, Beckham, Zidane,Rivaldo,Ronaldinho etc. are all pretenders to the real master.
Enjoy the clip!

PS: For the mods - this clip is directly from google videos, so its completely legal.

[Gypsum_Fantastic]

Lacked the courage to test himself regularly against the best by moving to one of the top European leagues. Would have been interesting to see if he coped with the pressures that Maradona faced at club and international level. Pele was surrounded by good players; Maradona wasn't. Pele enjoyed a revered status in the comfy confines of the Brazilian league for most of his career whilst Maradona faced the harsher realities of the Spanish and Italian leagues.

If Ronaldinho continues his development, he'll top both of them.

[DistantCelt]

Originally Posted by Gypsum_Fantastic

Lacked the courage to test himself regularly against the best by moving to one of the top European leagues. Would have been interesting to see if he coped with the pressures that Maradona faced at club and international level. Pele was surrounded by good players; Maradona wasn't. Pele enjoyed a revered status in the comfy confines of the Brazilian league for most of his career whilst Maradona faced the harsher realities of the Spanish and Italian leagues.

If Ronaldinho continues his development, he'll top both of them.

Ummm. Back in those days Brazilian league was exceptionally strong. He played for Santos and Santos wiped the floor with all european clubs.
And if you think that Ronaldinho is 'not far' from Pele's standard, you know very little about football. Stuff Pele could do, Ronaldinho or Maradona couldnt conceive of doing.

[Gypsum_Fantastic]

Originally Posted by DistantCelt

Back in those days Brazilian league was exceptionally strong. He played for Santos and Santos wiped the floor with all european clubs.

All European clubs? I think they won the discredited World Club Cup twice against Benfica and someone else but that was about it. The behaviour of the South American clubs in the 1960's and 1970's against European opposition in this tournament does not give any credence to the idea that a South American league was superior to a top European league. The games usually descended into a brawl at the South American's insistence - as Celtic found to their cost in 1967.

Every winner of the World Player of the Year award has come from a European club - and this is a vote decided internationally. Supporters of Pele can say what they like but there is no doubt that, even in the 1960's, leagues in Italy, England and Spain were the places to be to test yourself against the best on a weekly basis. Pele, for whatever reason, chose not to do it and is diminished in my eyes and it does not help his comparisons with Maradona, Cruyff, Puskas, etc.

Originally Posted by DistantCelt

And if you think that Ronaldinho is 'not far' from Pele's standard, you know very little about football. Stuff Pele could do, Ronaldinho or Maradona couldnt conceive of doing.

Wrong.

[DistantCelt]

Every winner of the World Player of the Year award has come from a European club - and this is a vote decided internationally. Supporters of Pele can say what they like but there is no doubt that, even in the 1960's, leagues in Italy, England and Spain were the places to be to test yourself against the best on a weekly basis. Pele, for whatever reason, chose not to do it and is diminished in my eyes and it does not help his comparisons with Maradona, Cruyff, Puskas, etc.

Umm. Europe held most of the votes for those stuff- still does. And as such, Europe has/had a remarkably eurocentric view on who is good and who isnt. Add the european-south american rivalry in the matter and there is no doubt that european opinion is hardly credible in this instance.
Ultimately, Santos swept all before them - including european clubs in club meets. As such, the quality of Santos and south american teams is beyond question.
Pele did stuff that Cruyff couldnt imagine doing. Regularly marked by 4-5 players who hung on to him like deadweights, kicked him outta the matches etc etc. The portuguese even broke his knee to keep him out of the world cup.
That balancing act goal i've seen is easily the best damn goal i've ever seen.
His passing was pin-point accurate and nobody could mark him with two players, let alone one. I've seen Cruyff play and he was artistic but nowhere close to where Pele was. Didnt see Puskas so cant comment.
But ultimately, Pele put up with way mroe abuse than any other player i can think of and still did way more than the next-best.
The fact that Pele played for a world champion club and a thrice fifa champion nation speaks volumes about the quality of the game in south america. And the fact that when Pele was injured those teams floundered speak volumes about Pele's incredible skill factor.

[Gypsum_Fantastic]

Originally Posted by DistantCelt

Umm. Europe held most of the votes for those stuff- still does. And as such, Europe has/had a remarkably eurocentric view on who is good and who isnt. Add the european-south american rivalry in the matter and there is no doubt that european opinion is hardly credible in this instance.

Ah, right. Europe is biased an' that.

The reality is that *every* South American player wants to play in Europe and European football is the pinnacle for every player in every continent. The fact Pele chose not to compete regularly at levels other than the parochial Brazilian league and the comically short-lived American league seriously diminishes the claim of his believers that he is da best.

Originally Posted by DistantCelt

Ultimately, Santos swept all before them - including european clubs in club meets. As such, the quality of Santos and south american teams is beyond question.

As I've stated, the World Club Cup in the 1960's and 1970's was little more than an annual running battle. Racing Club kicked Celtic off the park in both matches of the World Club Cup. No-one could seriously argue that the Celtic team of 1967 was an inferior technical side because of that defeat. And this was typical of the WCC in this period.

No-one is saying Santos were like this but it is dubious to cite two victories in the early 1960's as proof they 'swept all before them'. We also have to again question his courage and ambition when, at 23 years with Santos having 'swept all before them', he proceeds to tread water at club level for the next 15 years.

Originally Posted by DistantCelt

Pele did stuff that Cruyff couldnt imagine doing. Regularly marked by 4-5 players who hung on to him like deadweights, kicked him outta the matches etc etc. The portuguese even broke his knee to keep him out of the world cup.

Which talented player doesn't receive rough treatment? Maradona was infamously fouled at Barcelona by the 'Butcher of Bilbao'. Pele was by no means unique in having to deal with the pressure of man-marking.

Originally Posted by DistantCelt

The fact that Pele played for a world champion club and a thrice fifa champion nation speaks volumes about the quality of the game in south america. And the fact that when Pele was injured those teams floundered speak volumes about Pele's incredible skill factor.

Wrong.

[DistantCelt]

The reality is that *every* South American player wants to play in Europe and European football is the pinnacle for every player in every continent. The fact Pele chose not to compete regularly at levels other than the parochial Brazilian league and the comically short-lived American league seriously diminishes the claim of his believers that he is da best.

It may be the pinaccle of soccer now or in the recent times. But back in the 50s and 60s, Europe by no means was the 'dominant power' in footy. South America was.

1950 final was played between Uruguay and Brazil. 58,62 and 70 were won by Brazil. In 66, Pele's knee was broken by the Portuguese players just to keep him outta the tournament.
As such, that period was very much dominated by Brazil. It is also worth noting that most of the all conquering players from the brazilian team played IN brazil - Pele, Vava, Didi, Garrincha all played in brazil.
Therefore, your claim that 'european league was da best' is absolutely unfounded.

We also have to again question his courage and ambition when, at 23 years with Santos having 'swept all before them', he proceeds to tread water at club level for the next 15 years.

Umm that is because brazil declared him national treasure and prevented his release from brazilian teams until much much later

Which talented player doesn't receive rough treatment? Maradona was infamously fouled at Barcelona by the 'Butcher of Bilbao'. Pele was by no means unique in having to deal with the pressure of man-marking.

Look mate, i've followed Maradona's career pretty closely. He wasnt even HALF as roughly marked as Pele was and he didnt pull of HALF as many stunning moves as Pele did. Pele issimply incomparable due to the total domination he had over opponents.
His only challenger is Maradona and Maradona is inferior. Simply because Pele was a superior playmaker and a far far better finisher - Pele could shoot off both feet AND his head with excellence while Maradona was just one footed.
Pele also never missed 1v1 with a goalie...never.
From what i've seen, Maradona is leagues ahead of players like Cruyff, Best etc. and Pele is leagues ahead of Maradona.
If you followed cricket, the best analogy of Pele would be Bradman.