Ballot about independence but WHY NOT OTHER ISSUES TOO?

[iniref]

Referendum about independence but WHY NOT ABOUT OTHER THINGS TOO?

Scotland, we have been told, will in October 2014 hold a ballot to decide whether or not to become in independent country. We will, probably, be allowed to decide about this important matter in a "referendum" because we voted into government a political party which had promised to hold a referendum on this issue.

This sounds reasonable. Other nations and regions have held ballots in order to become independent. Countries as different as Norway and Eritrea gained independence with the aid of a ballot. The Canadian province of Quebec voted (so far) against the idea.

To repeat, in Scotland We The People are to be "allowed" to decide a most important matter of state constitution by means of direct democracy. BUT ... you may ask, why should our right to decide about how our country is run be restricted to only this one issue? A referendum of the whole electorate is certainly the most representative way to decide on a law or an important reform.

In public matters of state and in affairs of local government, let us begin to decide on a few other big issues using the direct democratic method of referendum.

With "Citizens' Initiative" the people can select an issue and decide to hold a referendum, not having to wait for government to "give" us one.

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[aNonnyMoose]

Once we are safely Independent, then we can rethink the whole idea of government and democracy. Look at how Iceland's been deciding its own constitution (no, no link, go and do a bit of research!). As long as we are tied to the millstone that is Westminster, there's not a chance in hell of any form of democracy in Scotland. Once we've gone our own way, then all options are open...

[tig]

i still dont get the idea of holding referendums for every matter that arises.

we elect people to represent us at parliament and hopefully make the choices we want them too.

how much money would it cost to ballot every person on every subject that would come up over a year?.....then how long would it take for a decision to be made?....it would take at least 3 months yo post out then collect all the votes then count them, then decided the result.

i just dont get how it would work in reality....what would mp's be for etc?

how about the icelandic system where theres a compulsory conscription for random ordinary people to be in the gov?

[iniref]

Originally Posted by aNonnyMoose

Once we are safely Independent, then we can rethink the whole idea of government and democracy. Look at how Iceland's been deciding its own constitution (no, no link, go and do a bit of research!). As long as we are tied to the millstone that is Westminster, there's not a chance in hell of any form of democracy in Scotland. Once we've gone our own way, then all options are open...

It would be unwise to ignore all themes of politics and constitution just because there is a chance of greater national self-determination after the 2014 referendum. If Scotland becomes independent of the UK then good and better (than now) democracy will be needed in the "new/auld" country. If Scotland stays in the UK then making local and national democracy more effective would help the people of Scotland to look after their own interests and affairs.

Let's take the example of local democracy.

The english -- at least their elected representatives of the conservative and liberal-democratic parties in government -- have recently shown us how NOT to behave in matters of local democracy. The Con/Libdem government in their coalition agreement (2010) promised that, ""We will give residents the power to instigate local referendums on any local issue". Surveys have repeatedly shown that over seven in ten voters agree that this sort of direct democracy should be introduced. This promise of more -- citizen-led -- democracy was included in the Localism Bill. As predicted there was a show of protest and resistance from Liberal Democrats (in Parliament HoL) and lobbying Tory allies from industry and local government associations. The responsible minister for community affairs Eric Pickles willingly agreed to drop the proposal (late 2011). So, stronger citizens' (real) democracy was thrown overboard. (See documentation Localism Act: DEMOCRACY OVERLOOKED OR THROWN OVERBOARD? )

In Scotland the Localism Bill has a rough equivalent in the Community Empowerment and Renewal Bill which is probably still in a debating phase and has not been put before the Holyrood parliament. Reference Group for the Community Empowerment and Renewal Bill

Independent of how much power will or will not be devolved from the centre to the local government periphery, let us strive to introduce elements of modern direct democracy into our Scots constitution. At local level "We The People", acting as an electorate, claim the right to propose and veto local law and policy on issues which we select. We demand that the following democratic "TOOLS" shall be included in the Community Empowerment and Renewal Bill:

citizens' proposal (initiative) which can lead to a ballot of the whole electorate

veto-referendum, to block bad or unwanted council plans

recall (sacking) of elected officials by the people who elected them
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[iniref]

Originally Posted by tig

i still dont get the idea of holding referendums for every matter that arises.

we elect people to represent us at parliament and hopefully make the choices we want them too.

how much money would it cost to ballot every person on every subject that would come up over a year?.....then how long would it take for a decision to be made?....it would take at least 3 months yo post out then collect all the votes then count them, then decided the result.

i just dont get how it would work in reality....what would mp's be for etc?

That's a key point, that we choose MPs or councillors who are supposed to "hopefully make the choices we want them to". We have very little guarantee that this will work. Many irreversible decision and sins of omission can occur in the long period between elections. What about the voters who strongly oppose the policies of the elected MP?

Having direct democracy means that the citizens' sovereignty (aka political power) can be applied in practical ways to select and decide on public issues as well as to choose among candidates (who become our employees).

No one seriously proposes that we should run public affairs, govern by putting every matter before the people in referendum. That is only for selected matters of "ordinary" law etc. or some very important ones (e.g. constitution, self-determination, some int. treaties national independence).

We do NOT propose to abolish parties and parliaments, only to add in some (mainly optional) checks and inputs which would improve quality of governance.

A citizens' initiative, which can lead to a ballot, may be needed for instance if the politicians in power "forget" an important promise or if they start to do something which nobody wants.

We need good design for direct democracy. This means that a citizens' proposal must attract a lot of support before it can go to ballot. So, low-quality or trivial proposals fall by the wayside.

Cost of referenda is not a serious problem -- we just need to look at working examples in places where direct democracy is already well known. Also, referenda can help to save money in various ways.

To get an idea about how direct democracy works in practice, view the short film here The Alpine Initiative.flv - YouTube

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[Scottish_Republican]

Originally Posted by tig

i still dont get the idea of holding referendums for every matter that arises.

we elect people to represent us at parliament and hopefully make the choices we want them too.

Quite common in certain areas, such as California, and Switzerland.

Regarding your last comment, the problem is that we have a political class who represent themselves. We end up with what's been called "Butskellism" (google this, if you've never heard of it), where each of the parties offer more or less the same thing. Like the USA, smaller parties don't have much of a look in.

Minimum pricing is a classic example of this. It almost certainly originated outwith the SNP, but is being pushed by it.

[tig]

tell me about it....my lovely self serving msp is no other that the much useless paul martin....him or his da have done nothing for my area in the last 20 years

why people still vote for them is beyond me

and dont get me started on the idle pointless never even visits clown that sits in westminster