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Old 9th May 2011, 13:25
jebus197 jebus197 is offline
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Independence?

So who on earth are all of these people who don't support independence?

Scotland votes €“ but what exactly for? | Michael White | Politics | guardian.co.uk

I don't really get it. Finally we have a chance to potentially right 300 years of English injustice, and yet (apparently) there are people out there who are 'too afraid' (or whatever their motivations are) to take the next logical step.

I am Scottish. I would like to say I'm proud to be Scottish, but often I'm not and the reason I'm not is because of this 'loser mentality' that so many Scots seem to have. We have a chip on our shoulders about being 'gubbed' by the English and for them robbing us of our sovereignty and identity.

Yet it seems a lot of Scots are too weak-willed and too filled with defeatism and self-doubt, to believe that we could survive on our own and that because of this we need to behave like some b*stard neglected child, forever sucking on the same bitter old English tit. We're supposed to be 'Scotland the brave', but in my view the day when Scots needed to grow some backbone (particularly of their own) is long, long overdue.

Even if it didn't come to full independence, give the people a choice. If Scots lack confidence (which they invariably do in so many areas) and are nervous about full independence, present them with an alternative (with a choice) that could be seen as a strong stepping stone towards full independence. Let the people build their confidence first, to see if we can survive as a country of our own - and then present them with a more radical choice at a later date, when we can show and prove to ourselves we don't need to leech off the English to survive.

This is England's fault. They stamped it into the Scottish psyche over multiple generations that we are, and would be nothing without them. I think it would be terrible if Scotland having been given this chance, was so weak and so lacking in self-belief, that it just threw this opportunity away. If it did this, then all aspirations towards independence and all of the romance and righteous indignation that pervades much of Scottish history, would I feel finally and justifiably be dead. I also think all aspirations of Scotland ever becoming a nation in its own right, would probably be dead at that point too.
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Old 9th May 2011, 15:51
mickolass mickolass is offline
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This all sound great independence! i do beleave too many are watching to many films, the true scot? "mel gibson"! defeat the English! Braveheart my arse!
Im sorry but not many can possible relate to anyone from those times? and anyway they were all butchering each other, the English and the Scottish.

"Lets get real" our farthers and grandfathers AND GREAT GRANDFARTHERS and possible our Great, great grandfathers/Mothers and thats it! thats the truth of how far we can go back as any individual and relate.

No! one can possibly say yes, look theres me relation on the battlefield, because no one knows! it was a film!!!

The only people we can relate to! well they would turn in there graves, our Scottish, English, Welsh and the Irish relations who died in two world wars for the UK! as a hole, for Queen and country and all that stuff, only to hear all this claptrap!!

We are "not oppressed by the English" sucking on any (English) tit as you put it! IF YOU RECALL WE HAD A SCOTTISH PRIMINISTER IN GOVERMENT and let be truthfull he was!.

Lets face something else (reality) WHO is going to pay for all this? the SNP? i mean does some people forget the UK! is in Debt? so come on independence, Loverly! let go for it, and at the same time we will let the rest of the UK (English, Welsh, Irish) keep the debt,??? and when we have independence Scotland will have a clean cheque book! with plenty of spending money?????? AND NO DEBT??
No im sorry the SNP is good as it challenges the goverment and is good for the scottish like any other council does for there areas, but Independence? Crap! we will then be run by the EU and salmond will be made for life as all the rest are in Brussels.
well sorry whoever blabbers on about Indipendence is not thinking of the scottish people but themselves. and a loverly cushy position in the EU.

"Wake up and smell the coffee" our pride as true Scotish people, is within the UK and if you havent forgotten the union flag has the Saltire in it. so it doesnt just belong to the English.
I am a true Scot all we need is some more Scots in Parliment.
So stop this rubbish (Braveheart crap) and come back to reality.

Last edited by mickolass; 9th May 2011 at 17:06.
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Old 9th May 2011, 18:59
jebus197 jebus197 is offline
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F*ck braveheart. Braveheart Scotland currently isn't. All this is is an admission that you and many other Scots are too whimpering and weak to believe that we possibly could stand on our own two feet. How heroic and noble is that? So I guess the only option is to get pissed and drown our sorrows and romanticise about a past that never was and a future that will never be?

Oh and BTW don't give me all of this sectarian crap about queen and country and the union Jack. Sure lots of Scots died in both world wars, but so did lots of Indians, lots of Jamaicans, lots of Canadians, lots of Australians and any one of a few hundred other conquered nationalities that formed the then British empire at that time. (And so did their grandparents and their grandparents grandparents. The English have never been shy of using other nationalities to fight their wars.)

But most of them eventually saw sense and had the balls to get up off their knees and demand that they be given the right to govern themselves. Only Scotland remained coward and too afraid to stand up for itself and make similar demands.

And who should pay for it? Well excuse me if I say it shouldn't be the English. I agree with them that we shouldn't have our begging bowls out and make this the only reason why we are afraid to take the step to govern ourselves. So who should pay? I say that the damn Scots should pay! I say that we should get up off our arses and quit with this defeatist attitude and that we should all work collectively to make Scotland an economic success story. Other small countries do it so why shouldn't we? Or are you saying you truly believe the Scots temperament is somehow different to that of other countries? That we, unlike other nation states, are simply incapable of looking after ourselves? With attitudes like yours around, it's no wonder so many Scots probably DO believe this.

Probably the reason so many Scots DO drink so much is because there is a collective sense of national disgrace, because of the past and because we allowed our country to be raped so comprehensively in 1706 by the English crown. (And at various other points preceding this too.) Defeatism has been endemic within the Scottish psyche ever since then. We expect to lose, so it is hardly a surprise when we so often do. So we drown our sorrows and try to forget, and just like our nobles and masters back then, we compound our shame by outstretching our hands and taking the English penny too. It is this attitude of defeatism that we as a nation will have to tackle first. Scotland needs to sober up (and not least through some very pro-active public health and nutrition campaigns), stand up and take responsibility for itself. A no vote in a referendum would be a national disgrace that our (then not) country would never live down. We would finally have to admit then that we are simply too weak to survive without the help of others. We would justifiably earn our title as the 'sick man of Europe', permanantly hooked on a form of invalidity benefit from the South. Is this truly the kind of future that Scots want for themselves?

Who cares if Salmond has his day in the sun? If Scotland is to be a democracy (which I assume beyond doubt it would be), then his star will fade - and Scotland will carry out political, social, economic and cultural business just like any other country in the world. All arguments like yours do is say that we can't do this - and that is the one thing that makes me despair (in fact it makes me feel ashamed) to be Scottish. You say we need to live life like leeches, I say that it's better that we stand on our own two feet (or fall on them if we must) and learn by whatever means is necessary to pay our own way.

Last edited by jebus197; 10th May 2011 at 10:58.
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Old 10th May 2011, 13:43
mickolass mickolass is offline
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What on earth are you on About?????
raped by the english crown??? in 1706 we were all just murdering each other with clan wars. and who do you know from then??????????
Scotland as we are today is due to the UK in a hole, all the famous inventors famous regiments buildings were all due to the "unity of the United KINGDOM" and if you read your history, we the scots were part of the so called Empire AND STOOD SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE ENGLISH WELSH AND IRISH AS ONE!
you have not given one good reason Scotland is what it is today otherwise?

Scotland as it is today, is totaly due to the Scottish people, and most importantly the Unity of the UNITED KINGDOM. thats how we are seen as we are today, not as a small tiny individual country like Holland or Southern Ireland WHO NO ONE LISTENS TO and is on the European puppet string.

You still cannot come up with not one strong case?

1/ Who is going to pay of the debt?
2/ with a population of what! only 20million people in scotland were do you possibly think we will get enough Tax from to pay for all this Freedom as you keep saying?
3/ Oil revenue/ the "United kingdom" tax payer paid for this! not just the Scottish,
4/ The Royal Bank of Scotland is not Scottish! is was bailed out by the United Kingdom taxpayer remember?

one big question you also fail to answer? if we had received our so called independence years ago! we could have been joining the bailout elete as our once Bank of Scotland was BANKRUPT!

so please start a proper debate? on the reasons? all you have done is bleated with a serious big chip on your shoulder about the English have raped us?? PLEASE!!!!
you also only refer to the great Scotland off 1706????????? and so called famous clans from 1700s, THAT I MAY SAY VERY CLEARLY, HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH HOW SCOTLAND IS TODAY.
please come back to the real world!

Im sorry i have never heard from any so called nationalist, NOT ONE! good reson for independence.

Last edited by mickolass; 10th May 2011 at 13:59.
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Old 10th May 2011, 14:38
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tig tig is offline
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Mickolass maybe you would get a debate on the subject if you actually knew what you where talking about.

20 million people in Scotland?
tax payers money paid for oil revenue?

you also keep attacking the EU which has absolutely no bairing on if we where independent or not.

you seem very misinformed in your attempt at an argument...maybe you should learn more first


ill give you one good reason for independence.......self governance
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Old 10th May 2011, 16:53
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THEMADFIFER THEMADFIFER is offline
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In agreeance with Tig.
The McCrone report for example is not 300 years old. Scottish waters being underhanded to England. Budget deficits.
Surely the lies are enough and more over why lie if it is not in Scotlands interest to know the truth?
And what of the illegal wars? And what of Bin Laden. No matter what he did he is supposed to have been executed without trial. And the English government showed their approval!!! Personaly i do not think he is dead, I believe he is being held, but that is off topic.

I am no expert on the matter of economics but I am a social scientist and I therefore suggest that governments stop treating the population like idiots.

I do not for one second think the transition will be plain sailing, but I am willing to give it my full support in which ever way is required of me.
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Old 10th May 2011, 18:16
Tocasaid Tocasaid is offline
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I think independence will come. Especially if the referendum is multi-choice.

Some assume that an independent Scotland 'would not work'. However when you cast the spotlight on a UK that is 900billion in debt and ask if that's 'working' then the answer has to be 'no'. On top of that is the huge swathes of poverty in Scotland that the Union, under different governments in London, has not addressed.

Lets go it alone.

Tocasaid: Auld songs for a new Scotland
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