How many people here would like to see independence?

[Hirta]

Originally Posted by Scottish_Republican

A hundred years ago, Ireland was a single entity.

Well, yes it was – as an integral part of the United Kingdom. Then part of the island – what was to eventually become the Republic of Ireland – seceded, which the North did not wish to do.

But anyway, so what? Plenty of countries have been created in the last hundred years, as various populations’ rights and aspirations of self determination have been made manifest. Even in my 25 years of existence there are far more countries now then when I was born. Countries are not necessarily fixed or permanent physical constructs.

Originally Posted by Scottish_Republican

...it makes as much sense to take this down to a lower level than occurred i.e. splitting up Northern Ireland further.

There is some merit to this argument. There were strongly nationalist areas retained within Northern Ireland that had a strong case for inclusion into the Free State upon partition. I don’t think that now, some 85 years after the event, that piecemeal areas of the Province should be transferred to the Republic but rather that Northern Ireland now be treated as a whole; unification, if it happens, should be all or nothing.

Originally Posted by Scottish_Republican

Many people, including Unionists and Protestants, consider themselves Irish in the north.

Just as there are many people in England that consider themselves Pakistani, Indian, Polish or whatever. Northern Ireland’s constitutional status should only be decided by democratic political means. This renders ethnic identity irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Scottish_Republican

NI's "determination" came from London.

Wrong. Explain to me the mass signing of the Ulster Covenant, Carson’s formation of the UVF and the Larne gunrunning. All of these pressures came from within Ulster, not London.

Originally Posted by Scottish_Republican

Face it, the only "self-determination" that the British Empire ever recognised was an apparent wish to "remain loyal/British".

So why was the Free State – and remember, this was integral territory of the United Kingdom, not some faraway overseas colony - allowed to come into existence? And why are the vast majority of Britain’s possessions now independent states, this happening often years before other European nations granted their colonies similar freedom? And how do you explain the NIBMAR - "No Independence Before Majority African Rule" - policy which forced Rhodesia's UDI in 1965?

And besides, so what? If you wish for the principles of democracy and self-determination to be respected and upheld, then Northern Ireland must remain a part of the United Kingdom. Yet you wish it to become a part of the Republic of Ireland, against the democratically expressed wishes of the people within the Province. You still haven’t justified this position. I ask you again – why should democracy be ignored in the case of Northern Ireland?

[Scottish_Republican]

Hirta, I refer you back to the map. The growing green blob in the south and west is a pretty good indication that the days of the loyalist statelet are numbered. Or that the thing will have to shrink again.

"Then part of the island – what was to eventually become the Republic of Ireland – seceded, which the North did not wish to do."

A bit like turning part of London into a separate state, because it voted Tory instead of Labour...

"Just as there are many people in England that consider themselves Pakistani, Indian, Polish or whatever."

Category error.

"All of these pressures came from within Ulster, not London."

It's not "Ulster". Get a clue.

"So why was the Free State – and remember, this was integral territory of the United Kingdom, not some faraway overseas colony - allowed to come into existence?"

Because World War I had just been fought, and thousands of lives lost. The Free State was considered to cost the UK more in lives than it gave back.

[dclor]

I grew up always hearing Scotland referred to as Scotland. I didn't know it wasn't it's own country until several years ago! When I went over to Scotland in 2000 I thought everyone over there would be FOR Scotland being separate from England and was shocked to find a lot of people against it! Even though they cited taxes and provisions going to the "south" they also said that the majority of the jobs were also in the "south" (not ALL, just the majority). Now this is as of when I was there 8 years ago so, granted, things could be different now. But I was really surprised to find Scots who did NOT want separation from England.

[NovaBritannia]

Originally Posted by dclor

I grew up always hearing Scotland referred to as Scotland. I didn't know it wasn't it's own country until several years ago! When I went over to Scotland in 2000 I thought everyone over there would be FOR Scotland being separate from England and was shocked to find a lot of people against it! Even though they cited taxes and provisions going to the "south" they also said that the majority of the jobs were also in the "south" (not ALL, just the majority). Now this is as of when I was there 8 years ago so, granted, things could be different now. But I was really surprised to find Scots who did NOT want separation from England.

I'm sure you were utterly amazed that we weren't all drunk, backward, violent, tartan-clad bigots concerned with things that had happened centuries ago. Well, we've never been that.

I am British. I live and grew up in Scotland.

God only knows what rock you've been living under to assume Scotland is an independent country. If you're an American, then God help you; but apparently it's all too common: only a minority of high school pupils could apparently correctly identify that the US gained independence from Great Britain.

[aNonnyMoose]

They've got a shiny new president now, and all will be sweetness and light...

[Scottish_Republican]

Originally Posted by NewBritain

I'm sure you were utterly amazed that we weren't all drunk, backward, violent, tartan-clad bigots concerned with things that had happened centuries ago. Well, we've never been that.

I am British. I live and grew up in Scotland.

God only knows what rock you've been living under to assume Scotland is an independent country. If you're an American, then God help you; but apparently it's all too common: only a minority of high school pupils could apparently correctly identify that the US gained independence from Great Britain.

A little upset?

Talking of centuries, the Union is 301 years past its sell-by date!

p.s. Bear in mind that when he mentions living under rocks, this is a person who complains Gaelic is a dead language, but whose screen name is in Latin!!!

[Jes_in_cal]

"I'm sure you were utterly amazed that we weren't all drunk, backward, violent, tartan-clad bigots concerned with things that had happened centuries ago. Well, we've never been that" - NovaBritannia

Talk about bigots, I have never heard US bashing like I have here. Someone says one thing and even if it's just inquisitive, you guys jump all over them. I love America (yes I'm American if you couldn't figure it out). But I grew up in Japan and have lived in Korea and Thialand. You see the news and make assumptions, maybe they are right and maybe not. We all do it but isn't it better to explain and educate rather than to basically call them stupid.

Seriously, get over yourselves.