Terrorists plot attacks in Britain!

[Foxx]

Originally posted by Neil_Caple
Interesting Op. Ed. piece in today's Herald. http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/21260.html

I think it proves the Bush Administration right in its efforts to destroy the terrorists on their home territory before they can get to a country like America with open borders.

Originally posted by Foxx
Speaking of the IRA terrorists -- they do seem to have failed in their goal of uniting Northern Ireland with the Irish Republic by means of violence.

In fact, the more bombings and assassinations, the more determined the opposition to Irish republicanism became until finally the IRA threw in the towel.

The main lesson that many Americans draw from "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland which lasted 30 years this last time around is to dig in your heels and support the anti-terrorism activities of the police and army, and depend on the common sense of the people under attack by the terrorists to resist until the terrorists lay down their arms.

A point made well in a recent movie, "The Boxer" where a former IRA terrorist opts for peace after a 15 year prison sentence.

BTW, the British military did not attack the Irish Republic because that government attempted to suppress the IRA. I think the British military would have invaded Eire to crush the IRA had not the Irish government attempted to do the job for them.

Foxx, I'm afraid you have entirely missed the lessons to be drawn from Northern Ireland. The Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) did fail to unite Ireland. However, PIRA did not throw in the towel and has not disbanded. PIRA was not defeated. Peace was achieved by dialogue: both sides unstiffened their necks a little and talks were initiated. Ultimately, both sides formalised these talks by signing the Good Friday Agreement. The terrorists did not lay down their arms until the talks began.

Hollywood movies are not a reliable historical source.

And just so you know, in the early days of the troubles, there was a brief "loyalist" bombing campaign carried out in the Irish Republic. Subsequent investigations have shown that these bombings were instigated by British Military Intelligence (as indeed were many PIRA actions) so, you see, the British military did violate the sovereignty of the Republic of Ireland.

Just so that we are clear here, I will repeat my main point: The IRA was not defeated by the armed forces of the British State. The "troubles" were only ended by negotiation. If you want to defeat terrorism you must engage in dialogue.

These two letters were published in the Herald today, August 5, 2004. I think they show a pretty good understanding of the situation we are in right now.

To frighten the US into voting Republican
Your Letters August 05 2004
IAIN Macwhirter says: "I'm not saying that the Department of Homeland Security is making up security scares just to frighten the voters into voting Republican" (August 4). Why not? Almost everyone else is.
Every time the Department of Homeland Security pulls another of these stunts, the less credibility it has. There is no way for the public to know when an alert is genuine, and, so far as we know, there may not have been one yet. A clue may be that the news media always seem to refer to the Department of Homeland Security as the source, with no corroboration from elsewhere.
All a terrorist (or a DHS functionary, for that matter) needs to do to shut down a city is to sketch out a half-baked attack plan and leak it to the CIA – which will then recycle it to the DHS – without ever leaving the comfort of his office. A successful economic attack will have been inflicted while the population is duly intimidated.
The intimidation reaches its greatest excesses around the Statue of Liberty – liberty? – where one is subjected to airport-style searches before boarding the ferry, and is constantly watched from black helicopters circling overhead. All this goes on while container ships enter the nearby port in New Jersey with little or no scrutiny.
This US administration – and, sadly, probably the next one – shows little interest in uncovering the roots of terrorism. Its resources are spent on spectacularly ineffective displays of power, making it an easy target while showing the world that peace is still not high on its agenda.
Andrew Foster, 1335 West River Road RR4, Cambridge, Ontario, Canada.

FOR more than 50 years we had an enemy within: an enemy who had active service units in our country, lived among us for generations, moved among us, planted bombs, mortared 10 Downing Street, assassinated loved public figures, killed and maimed here and abroad with a singleness of purpose; an enemy who was engaged in silent battle and thwarted.
It's astonishing today. We now have a new enemy. This one does not send coded messages to the police, telephone the media with warnings and invade our lives. This fragile enemy is a ghost who lives in the minds of politicians, security committees, MPs. We do not see this enemy but names are given to them to make them tangible for people to believe.
To fight this ghost we have meaningless security alerts, news flashes, screaming headlines. We have to face the prospect of identity cards, cannot gather together to protest and cannot argue without being branded as disloyal, unpatriotic and un-British. Something is badly wrong if fighting today's ghosts means a loss of liberty that fighting the enemy within did not require.
Charles E MacKay, 42 Ripon Drive, Glasgow.

[heathen]

Originally posted by Foxx

Speaking of the IRA terrorists -- they do seem to have failed in their goal of uniting Northern Ireland with the Irish Republic by means of violence.

In fact, the more bombings and assassinations, the more determined the opposition to Irish republicanism became until finally the IRA threw in the towel.

The main lesson that many Americans draw from "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland which lasted 30 years this last time around is to dig in your heels and support the anti-terrorism activities of the police and army, and depend on the common sense of the people under attack by the terrorists to resist until the terrorists lay down their arms.

A point made well in a recent movie, "The Boxer" where a former IRA terrorist opts for peace after a 15 year prison sentence.

BTW, the British military did not attack the Irish Republic because that government attempted to suppress the IRA. I think the British military would have invaded Eire to crush the IRA had not the Irish government attempted to do the job for them.

What on earth are you talking about it was the ira who kicked britian out the republic of ireland never heard of micheal collins no ?

the provisinal ira have been on a ceasefire since the ninties !

[Foxx]

Originally posted by heathen

What on earth are you talking about it was the ira who kicked britian out the republic of ireland never heard of micheal collins no ?

the provisinal ira have been on a ceasefire since the ninties !

I am aware of the most recent Irish revolution that was led by Collins and others, and the IRA during and after WW I that led to the division of Ireland and the establishment of the Irish Republic.

My reference was to the reborn neo-Marxist IRA (provisional) IRA that did, as you note, finally agree to a ceasefire with the British, because of the failure of violence, which included bombing and assassinations, to secure their goal: uniting Northern Ireland with the Irish Republic.

[Foxx]

Originally posted by Neil_Caple

Foxx, I'm afraid you have entirely missed the lessons to be drawn from Northern Ireland. The Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) did fail to unite Ireland. However, PIRA did not throw in the towel and has not disbanded. PIRA was not defeated. Peace was achieved by dialogue: both sides unstiffened their necks a little and talks were initiated. Ultimately, both sides formalised these talks by signing the Good Friday Agreement. The terrorists did not lay down their arms until the talks began.

Hollywood movies are not a reliable historical source.

And just so you know, in the early days of the troubles, there was a brief "loyalist" bombing campaign carried out in the Irish Republic. Subsequent investigations have shown that these bombings were instigated by British Military Intelligence (as indeed were many PIRA actions) so, you see, the British military did violate the sovereignty of the Republic of Ireland.

Just so that we are clear here, I will repeat my main point: The IRA was not defeated by the armed forces of the British State. The "troubles" were only ended by negotiation. If you want to defeat terrorism you must engage in dialogue.

Just for the record I do think that movies made in any country by any movie producer (I believe "The Boxer" was a British production) usually play fast and lose with the facts and aim for an emotional reaction from the audience -- "Fahrenheit 9/11" is an excellent example.. I do believe they make "A Point" about a subject, and "The Boxer" did just that -- The point being that continued terrorism against the British in Northern Ireland was useless and simply bloody murder, that it was high time to "kiss and make-up" ...and that was high time to start a dialogue with the other fellow who just may have a good argument in his favor and compromise was possible between people of good will!

Yes, today the future of Northern Ireland is "debated about" instead of being "shot about," but it wasn't the subject for "jaw, jaw" until about 30 years of "war, war" and both sides came to the understanding that couldn't conquer the other side by force of arms.

Somewhat like the realization of the British establishment in about 1781 that 13 of their American colonies were lost and that the best deal for the Empire could only come about by "jaw, jaw" instead of "war, war" -- and in time a "Special Relationship" would develop between the two countries so much so that "war,war" between the two would be unthinkable.

Yes, in time I think an excellent relationship will develop between the peoples of the Middle East and the West, but only after both sides understand that total victory is not possible.

The time is not yet...

So why waste all those precious lives in an undertaking which is doomed from the start? If there is one thing to be learned from the various terrorist movements of the 20th Century it is that violence in response to violence achieves nothing. The troubles in Northern Ireland were ultimately futile, whereas Mahatma Ghandi defeated the British Empire with a bag of salt. Terrorists will never defeat the United States, but neither will the United States defeat terrorism by military means. It's time to learn from the mistakes of the past rather than blindly repeating them. It's time to jaw-jaw.