Celtic Christians

[labhriunn]

I've heard this phrase: Celtic Christian or such like -- Celtic Christianity, Celtic Evangelicalism... -- and I'm right puzzled by such a notion; and I'm right fed up with it as well. This mindset is due directly first to the commercialization of popular culture. Of course there is nothing more popular than things Celtic. There cannot be such a thing as a Celtic Christian. The two are mutually exclusive. The majority of Us are either Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, and etc. The Celticness has been pretty much domesticated out of Us. The Christian church wanted nothing to do with things Pict nor Celtic. Everything that would be Celtic -- for the sake of keeping this short I will mean to include Pict when I say Celtic, though they are not wholly the same, they are close enough for this SHORT message -- is antithetical to Christianity and the entire realm of religion. In short, Christianity in perticular -- it was/were the Christians who sent out the missionaries to the Celts to convert them, not the Muslims and such, so when talking about Celts and religion we must assume that, considering what religion is, that all religion would reject the Celtic view of "worship" -- made certain to reject the Celts and their wholly Spiritual society. The Christians have never had anything but contempt and hate for the Celts. That goes for all Earth Magic Societies. Religion has no use for any of them. Even so today. You can call yourself anything you want. But the reality is there are way too few Celts, and what would make you a Celt would set you apart from Christian thought.

[Celto]

Hi labhriunn,

I hear your frustration with the Celticmania all about us. I hope in your frustration that you keep in mind that this is not just among those who call themselves Christians, but also among many of Druids and other pagans about us as well. As far as Christianity/Celtic, I must say that I think you have thrown the baby out with the basket. Celticmania is with us and here to stay whether we like it or not. However, this does not make every Druid a fake nor does it make every person who calls himself or herself and Celtic Christian a fake either.

If you would like to chat about this I would be more than willing to. But I am not up for a nasty fight...just a chat of sharing information and experience.

Celto

[labhriunn]

Nice hearing from you. I would have answered earlier but for the internet's absolute bias for crass commercialism; as I finished a reply and tried to send it, my station was overwhelmed with the pop-ups and the pop-unders and so on that the reply was not able to be wrentched from that cuffuffle. I hate the internet anymore...But let me say I am not in the least repulsed by the Celticness being searched for now. I've know the obvious "correctness" of "Cetlic" forever. What concerns me is that which is given and not worked or searched for. It is right fine to call yourself anything that you want. The danger lies in how it corrupts "knowledge". For instance, you could call yourself Female. But you just happen to be male. There is nothing wrong with that, if that is what you want to say that you are. You may feel that your personal qualities reflect what you know as "Female" so strongly that you identify not at all with Males. You go as far as wearing dresses, and make-up, carry on and do all things "Female". The problem is you just happen to have a spigot; an "outtie". Hummm. Now that might be confusing. I don't have a problem with calling yourself anything that you want to call yourself. I have a problem with not being responsable...Celts just happened to be, perhaps the most responsible group of people that ever Lived. They were an Earth Magic Cult and knew the importance of not only words, but of everything that happened; what could be seen and not. So responsibility was a governing tenant of their society. So, to call yourself Celtic would be one thing, but to say that what you are is Celtic would imply that you are responsible for your actions. If what you perpetrate on someone is "positive", well great, but if it turns out to be "negative", well...I am a Celtic Shaman. I am also a shrink, a psychologist. I am also a ordained minister. Humm. I can tell you that there would be one litmus test for the new idea that there can be a Celtic Christian church, and that would be the two fastly different views of "death". Unlike any other "religion", Celts/Picts had no concept of "death". Picts/Celts could not conceive of a Life that ended. And that is a funny thing in that if you would look at every "bible", every religion goes on at length about how souls are immortal, but all religions admonish the judgement and the death. Picts/Celts had not such a concept. That did not make sense. Death is the one greatest control key of all religions. Death let you out of things. Picts/Celts knew that you were responsible for everything within and without your power, or your preceived power. Much more encompassing than even Karma! Ooops. I'll shut my festering gob now and let someone else talk. Hope to hear from you soon. Cheers.

[Celto]

Hi labhriunn,

Much of what you are saying is true as well as argued in the same spirit by Christian scholars who are considered to be experts in the field of Celtic studies. You may want to check a couple of these scholars who argue against the concept of a group called "Celtic Christianity." Two books are as follows: "Celtic Theology," by Thomas O'Loughlin and "Celtic Christian Communities," by Ian Bradley.

For myself I am not in total agreement with many of these writers who take your argument in spirit. There books are good and one can learn much; however, as is with much of learned writers, they take too lightly the power, faith and endurance of laity. As scholars do not create language, neither do they create spirituality and faith. This is the job of laity. The most scholars can do is study what we believe and practice in our spirituality and faith. That may be a humbling thought for a scholar, yet it is true.


In saying this even though Rome forced their faith on those of us who are pagans, we cannot discount the fact that in the synergism of this process, we kept much of our pagan ways--more than what the Church is willing to admit. To take this a step further, even for us pagans this is sometimes too much for us to accept. Yet paganism, especially Celtic paganism, is all around and yes even in the Church.

As far as a "litmus test" is concerned, I really don't think one could create one from a Celtic cultural perspective. It is too wide and vast in beliefs and practices to do that. Nevertheless if we were to propose this litmus test to many who follow the Old Ways as well as Christianity, they would be in agreement with you. This is what we mean by "synergism." To propose a certain faith does not necessarily mean that one has to be 100% in agreement. If this were the case, there wouldn't be different Christian denominations and there wouldn't even be a Bible (the books of the Bible don't even agree on everything).

Am I a Christian? Yes I am! Am I a pagan? Yes I am! And so are many of those who follow the Christian faith; however, many of them are not aware of this--they are blind to it. What they think to be Christian is actually Celtic paganism. But again, they don't know this.

As you have rightly stated the Celts' view on death let us remember that for the Celts, there was neither “black” nor "white," "right" or "wrong." For the Celts religion and spirituality was not so much the exercise of one's intellect; instead, it was a way of life.

Celto

[labhriunn]

Once again the flipping internet has done it's worst. Again I sent a responce that was ambushed by the wee little beasties in the eithers! I should learn, but not! You have been spared a rather longish response by what the little people did to my previous reply. I just want to clearify one point. The one important, perhaps only way to absolutely qualify the utterly vast divide between Christianity and Pict/Celt "religion". It is the "death" myth. Christian's and all other "religions" accept and identify with that mortality myth. The Picts/Celts alone do not conceptualize that myth. Picts/Celts -- I'll just write Pcelts from now on, alright -- would have drawn a blank in a conversation about "death" with someone who believed in death. Like a Roman. That is the most frightening thing to the Roman warriors about the Pcelts, their inconceivable death. I don't know if one can anymore have an inconceivable death, what with us being so bombarded with all this "Christianity". I use Christianity as a reference to all religions. Religion is what gives us our "Thou Shalt Not's!" I do believe one can be initiated into a new inconceivable death. I would argue that this new nonparticipation in the myth would be on par with that of a death unconceivable; the Pcelts reveired the intellect and were extremely deep people, so to gather in the myth, understand it then relinquish your participation in the practice and beliefe would likely be embraced by the Pcelts. But I will stop now and take a breath, and hope the little vapories don't obscond with my reply.

[Celto]

Hi labhriunn,

I must say that I am enjoying our little discussion and I have faith that your computer will behave in the near future. Mine was misbehaving for about 3 weeks. That is a long time to be down.

Instead of throwing out so much at one time I think I will stick with a single genre so that we can come to some understanding with each other. This should be fun.

Concerning the death issue, what I was attempting to say to you is that there are many of those who call themselves Christians who still hold to the Old Ways and view death just as they did. I am one of those...

Christianity is a large group of people with many different views and one cannot place them all in the same category. Take for example my Culdee friends. They are Christians and still hold to the Old Ways--even when it comes to the topic of death.

HERE IS SAID I WOULD STICK TO ONE TOPIC--OH WELL. SO MUCH FOR THAT.

I was interested in your first statement in this thread. Either you are a reader or you have come into contact with those who are Christians and yet hold a Celtic flare in their practice. You mentioned Celtic Evangelism. That especially drew me to your thread. Have you read George Hunter, III's book, "The Celtic Way of Evangelism." I had the opportunity to speak with George about a year and a half ago. He was a very gentleman and well read. However, his book was based on much of what we see in Celtic mania.

We have never chatted in the past so I must ask you who you are and where you live if you feel comfortable with answering this questions.

Catch you later,
Celto

[labhriunn]

Alright then, last things first:

I don't mind the query of the who and where and all that bit. Hummm, Labhriunn MacIain's the name. From the Zetlands via Dundee, via Glenco, via that I have no recolection just now. I believe I mentioned that I am a shrink, and all that before, and more than that to be sure, but I just say, when asked that I am an itinerant intellectual, or general pain in the bum. You would be correct in assuming that I have spent many an hour reading. One of my PhD's (which I prefer to call PhDuh's) is in English Literature: Modern English Classics. I must say though that I really do love the Beats. As far as a creative force they were the most potent here in the States; like everything else you cannot include the Beatles because they were an unquantifiable force, like from some other plante, like the were a vortex to infinity, or something like it. But anyway, yeah I read. I also write. You'd be hardpressed to find any of my writings on the library shelves. Well, you'd be hardpressed to find many penned by me using my "given name." That is paranthetical because a nom de plume is exactly that. So I well say given to me by my parents. I don't have any use for fame and all that crap. It just gets in the way. How do I know? I used to be a rocker. Played with many "people". Since I was more studio than stage, I was able to observe the complications that most often comes with that fame, how it almost always restricts your creativity, puts people you care about on the spot and such like. Since I love the people I love I wouldn't want to put them out so thought the better of fame and thought it much better Living out in the country on a farm raising bees, or is that wasps? And now that you know that I currently Live in the States, I can tell you that it is comical in so much as where I Live happens to be considered the middle of the State of Michigan. The town, or it is a village really, only 420 people, the town is Sterling. Oddly enough, as you must know, Stirling in about the centre of Scotland. Weird isn't it? Life is nothing more than one magical thing linked to another until you are done here and go elsewhere. You must know that I am a writer since I prattle on so much. Though I would like to answer your reply; I do not seem familiar with George Hunter. I will find the book you speak of and read it. I would also like to mention something in a reply to a previous "post" of yours. You said, I think, that it is the Laical who create the spiritial and faith, not the intellectual. I believe you said something to the effect that the intellectual only studied that which is created by the people. I've taken that to mean that the intellectual creates nothing, just reports on what has been created. Well, perhaps there is something that is overlooked. I know many people believe that about those that are "not the people" -- please wait, I'm chuckling much too hard. I really crack myself up. Okay, all better, now where was I --but that view overlooks the, to me, obvious, and that is the intellectual directs what the people think about. What I mean, and I will use the "church" to illustrate. That faith and spirituality comes from a "church". The people who run the church determine what the church stands for. That is dispersed throughout the congrigation and further still via missionary. Spirituality and faith comes from that dogma. See where I'm leading? If the church is the seat of the intellect of that order, then the way the people break it down for themselves is entirely dependant on The Word. And you don't even what to get into how undecypherable The Word is; damn intellectuals!!!! Oh, this is great fun. So then, where are you from and who are you and all that great fun stuff?!