america in war

[Scottish_frog]

Tennman, do you always twist people's words around?
When did i once say that I thought it was legitimate for the Al Quida terrorists to murder 4000+ people?
Also you state that the USA became involved in WWar2 as it was starting?
Not true, the USA only joined in the fight in 1941 when IT was attacked, the war was already 2 years in progress.

Oh yes, you are right that the Jews were in control of Palestine, before Mohammid was even born, BUT the Jews fled their homeland into Europe from the Romans more than a thousand years ago, then the Arabs moved in and fought the Romans off and then lived there for more than a thousand years after that, so if you think that the Jews are the rightful owners of Palestine NOW even after having been gone from there for more than a thousand years, would that not mean that the American Indians are the rightful owners of your country now? After all, they were there first, and non-Red Indians have not even been in america for as much as a thousand years, how would you like it if you were told to leave in place of the indigenous people becuase they were there first?
In fact there WAS a taliban AND a Northern allience in the eighties, in the time of the "Cold War".
The USA supported the taliban and the Soviet Union were in support of the Northern allience, don't beleve me? Read a modern history book to tell you then.
Also funny how when the USA is attacked by terrorists ONLY then it feels the need to hunt down terrorists. Before this incident even took place the American government couldnt even care less about international terrorism becuase they were hardly ever a victim, now that they are its a different story.
You say that the USA was opposed to any Jewish state in Palestine, OH REALLY???.
In fact it was due to many powerful American Jews who gave funding to the jews in Palestine, that is what allowed the Israelis to become so powerful.

"Amazing! You pull people's butt out of the fire TWICE in one century and THIS is the kind of thanks you get a few generations later".
That quote shows how you are obviously another Amercan who has been watching to many films, you know the kind "America saved the world from world war 2". In fact the Soviets were just as much as a help as you Americans. No matter how much you would like to think otherwise.
By the way the USA was not even a super power in world war 1, it was only after world war 2 that both America and the Soviet Union both became aware of their power, and as a result decades of trying to out match each other took place.

"Lastly, I don’t see that Sweden or Australia (those great democracies YOU mentioned) have done much at all in TRYING to bring peace between Israel and the Palestinians or in the Middle East as a whole. Name for me one instance if you can. America certainly has and is." The reason America is so called trying to help is because they were part of the problem in the first place, America is trying to bring peace to the Middle East??? Give me an example of how America has done anything to help the Middle East that was NOT in Amercas interests.

My point about Australia and sweden was to point out that America was NOT attacked becuase terrorists hate democracy, I was pointing out that if they hated democracy then why choose to attack America? When there are so many other democratic countries in this world to choose from.

Every single fact I brought up is a true fact that can easily be found in history books.
And lastly please don't twist my words around I never ONCE said that the people who were killed in the towers and the pentagon deserved to die. It is disgusting that those lives were murdered and im not in support of terrorism AT ALL!
From the frog.

[Tennman]

Usually there's no need to twist peoples words around, Frog. All you have to do is really listen to what they say, or post.

"I hate to break it to you Akilia, but the plain and simple reason's the terrorist attacks took place is becuase of America's foreign interference with the theft of Palestine. Also becuase of the fact that America likes to pick and choose who they are with and agianst depending how it suites America and no one else"

Did the Al Quida terrorists have a legitimate point or not? Those look like some apologetic statements to me. It's the same old, sad tale, "the US got what it deserved for past sins, real and imagined". I stand by my original take on what you said.

I think it is you who needs a closer look at history. Concerning WWII, the US was involved in many facets virtually from the start. No, we were not officially armed belligerents until after Dec. 7, 1941, however if it were not for what FDR called "the arsenal of democracy", Great Britain most assuredly would have been crushed by the Nazis.

To start, there was US Under-Secretary of State, Sumner Welles mission to Rome, Berlin, Paris and London in March of 1939, searching for a peaceful solution to the conflict. Next we have the Anglo-French purchasing mission in May of 1940. We have Lend / Lease, which was made law in March 1941, but the US government had backed shipment of war material to the Allies without payment even before the fall of France. The sharing of intelligence between the US, UK and USSR. An example, March 1, 1941, the US Ambassador informing Molotov of US intelligence indicating German intentions to attack the Soviets, prior to the German invasion of the USSR. The Atlantic Charter in August 1941. In June 1941, the US government froze all German and Italian financial assets in the US and also took over the defense of Iceland at Churchill's request. Also, in June 1941, American merchantmen began moving material, under US flag, into European war zones. Doesn't look to me like the US collectively sat on their hands prior to Pearl Harbor. Quite the contrary.

Now lets see about the Taliban and Northern Alliance. The Taliban came out of obscurity in 1993, long after the Sovs had pulled out of Afghanistan. Here's a couple of websites concerning the origins of those happy fellows.

http://www.idsa-india.org/an-aug-2.html
http://www.afgha.com/sections.php?op...ticles&secid=3
http://www.rte.ie/news/features/afgh...rian_int2.html

The Northern Alliance, as a quasi organization, didn't exist either prior to the power grab and civil war after the Soviets left. They were all seperate groups at that time. Ahmed Shah Massoud, unofficial leader of the Alliance prior to his assassination on Sept. 9, 2001, was a respected leader of the Mujaheden during the Soviet occupation. There are those within the Alliance that were supportive of Soviet involvement way back when, but like most things in Afghanistan, it's hard to tell who's on what side from one day to the next. Your assumptions on this are far too simple and dead wrong.

As for Israel, we could argue that one for ages and it would come to nothing. The fact is, regardless of Jewish pressure within America, it was stated policy of the Truman administration to oppose the formation of Israel for the reason I stated. This did change over time due to pressure at home and the need for a trustworthy ally in a sensitive part of the world. As for support, sure the US supports Israel, but also Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, Kuwait, the Palestinians even Iraq until late '91...all except those who harbor terrorists. He!!, we give money to virtually everyone in the third world, to our own detriment, but
that's another story.

Hardly ever a victim of terroism? Domestically yes. Good thing since we have our own home grown nuts to deal with. However abroad the US has many, many times been the victim of terroist atrocities. Guess we attacked Libya back in the 80's because the Reagan Admin. was bored and the 7th fleet needed some live fire exercises. Lost two embassys in Africa in '98. That guy with the truck in Beriut back in '84 wasn't a terrorist! He was just lost, asked for directions, and his truck blew up for no reason. Those suicide boaters who hit the USS Cole were really just fishing and the US warship, tied up to the quey, ran over them. The PanAm flight blown up over Lockerby Scotland. The attack on the US military barracks in Saudi in the mid 90's, etc. etc. etc. Get the picture, frog?

The reason we are attacked is that we are the symbol of freedom. Sure we stumble over ourselves in foreign policy matters more times than not, but ask the average Joe from Bejing to Sao Palo what nation exemplifies freedom and democracy and I'll bet you 2 to 1 he doesn't say Sweden or Australia.

[Tennman]

Oh, last but not least...

"The reason America is so called trying to help is because they were part of the problem in the first place, America is trying to bring peace to the Middle East??? Give me an example of how America has done anything to help the Middle East that was NOT in Amercas interests."

Well, lets see. There's the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt, both sides brought together by then President Carter.

The agreements in the mid 90's between Syria, Jordan and Israel, brokered by the US.

The current talks between the Palestinians and Israel. Several US administrations have done everything they could to get these two to come to some peaceful agreement. Heard today that a current Gallup poll shows 60% of Israelis support the idea of a seperate, sovereign Palestinian state. Progress is being made.

Fact is, it is in America's interests, and yours if you live in the industrialized West. You know the bias is really wearing thin. Why don't you admit that you just don't like America and stop coming up with faulty reasoning to back your preconceived ideas? And for once, try to give credit where credit is due. And please answer my question, why is it that every other nation on earth can do what it pleases, for it's own interests, but not the US. Very, very faulty logic on your part frog. Wise man once said, "cut the crap and answer the ####### question!"

[Scottish_frog]

Tennman, firstly thank you for proving my point about the USA support of Israel by this quote,
"The fact is, regardless of Jewish pressure within America, it was stated policy of the Truman
administration to oppose the formation of Israel for the reason I stated. This did change over
time due to pressure at home and the need for a trustworthy ally in a sensitive part of the world"
All that statement proves it that the USA was looking for somewhere in the middle east to act
as a little follower to serve in the interest of the US.

Can't you read? I've said TWICE that the terrorists were in the wrong and had absolutely no
right to do what they did, I don't approve of the murder of innocent people at any time EVER. Yes the USA is helping with the Palestine/Israel issue (helping Israel). Tell me one significant
thing that America has done to help Palestine in this whole mess.
"Heard today that a current Gallup poll shows 60% of Israelis support the idea of a separate,
sovereign Palestinian state. Progress is being made." Oh really? What progress? Oh yes
throwing a rock at an Israeli soldier and being shot in return, yes what great progress that is.
So what if they support the idea of a separate, sovereign Palestinian state, the offers that the
Palestinians have been made are well in favour of Israel, you obviously know little about the
Taliban, it's not only in Afghanistan and yes it has been around before 1993.
"I think it is you who needs a closer look at history. Concerning WWII, the US was involved
in many facets virtually from the start. No, we were not officially armed belligerents until after
Dec. 7, 1941, however if it were not for what FDR called "the arsenal of democracy", Great
Britain most assuredly would have been crushed by the Nazis." Thank you for proving my point
again, the USA did not get officially involved before Japan attacked THE USA, big deal if you froze Nazi bank accounts, that's hardly a big help considering most rich Nazis
had Swiss bank accounts. The fact is that America did not get fully involved in the fight until IT
was attacked.
"The reason we are attacked is that we are the symbol of freedom. Sure we stumble over
ourselves in foreign policy matters more times than not, but ask the average Joe from Bejing to
Sao Palo what nation exemplifies freedom and democracy and I'll bet you 2 to 1 he doesn't say
Sweden or Australia." I bet you that too, but i bet they wouldn't say America either, and in fact
Australia is rated number 2 in the world by the UN second only to Norway, so it would be a
good estimate to say that, yes Australia is a more desirable place to move to than the USA, at
least kids there are unlikely to get shot dead in school. No America is not the symbol of
freedom (only to yourselves). Why would international terrorists care if you were the most free
nice democratic place on Earth (which your not)?
Your right I don't like America, I don't like how you interfere with things that don't concern
you and say that you were just helping them. I don't like your support of Israel, I don't like how
you all seem to have the idea that America is the centre of the planet and the most well run, best
at everything attitude. Symbol of freedom?? Ah yes the capturing and slavery of blacks from
Africa and the murder of Red Indians is a great symbol of freedom. I suppose being able to
carry a firearm in your pocket in Texas is too? What about suing everybody (oops you slipped
on a drink in my shop and lost a strand of hair don't sue me please)? Is that a symbol of
freedom? How about your massive crime rate in comparison to most of the western world, is
that freedom as well?
"Usually there's no need to twist peoples words around, Frog. All you have to do is really listen
to what they say, or post." Ah ha so you do admit to twisting my words, thanks you very much
for admitting it. Either that or you do support the twisting around of peoples words (don't
Usually )?
"Fact is, it is in America's interests, and yours if you live in the industrialized West. You know
the bias is really wearing thin. Why don't you admit that you just don't like America and stop
coming up with faulty reasoning to back your preconceived ideas? And for once, try to give
credit where credit is due. And please answer my question, why is it that every other nation on
earth can do what it pleases, for it's own interests, but not the US. Very, very faulty logic on
your part frog. Wise man once said, "cut the crap and answer the ####### question!" Ok ill
answer your question. Every other nation can't do what's in it's interests and get away with it,
remember when (so called) Britain was going through it's colonisation period of trying to take
over and use every other lesser advanced country and the controversy of Amritsar etc, etc.
Britain has a bad image, the Germans had a terrible one now that's changed, there are plenty of
other examples. You only get a bad image when its rightly deserved (and sometimes not even
then) the fact is America has committed a lot atrocities to deserve one but in the western world
most people are brainwashed into thinking of the big hero America, because of the media.
And finally "And for once, try to give credit where credit is due." Why should I give your
country credit? what has your country done to help mine? And no im not going to believe that
"America saved the world" ****
From the frog.

[Edited by Scottish_frog on 24th November 2001 at 16:47]