Reincarnation

[Celto]

Andy-J,

Maybe I have misunderstood you. If what you are telling me is that you believe Jesus was a teacher of reincarnation and that your theory is based on "blind faith," and not on historical evidence, then I have misunderstood your position. If truth has been revealed to you outside of statements of faith or historical documents, then you have every right to say what you have been saying--and I also honor your stance.

But if this is truly what you are saying then you must admit that you have misinformed those of us who have been reading this thread. For example, you said in your first reply, "I have a firm belief in reincarnation and it was one of the "doctrines" (emphasis added) of the early church." To use the word doctrines is to imply that there was a written or expressed statement of belief, such as, "We believe that Jesus Christ is the reincarnate soul of Elijah."

In another post you said, which I think is an accurate statement but then you you immediately contradict it, "The bible is open to interpretation AND I CONCEDE THAT CHRIST MAY INDEED NOT HAVE BEEN REFERRING TO REINCARNATION, however it is my belief that given that he was an enlightened spiritual being with an awareness of the workings of Karmic law HE WAS IN FACT REFERRING TO REINCARNATION.” How are we who read statements as such to understand what it is you really believe?

You say that you don’t want to get caught up in a circular argument over what a biblical text may say or may not say, and yet, you quote a few texts to prove your point. How am I to understand your intentions?

Again, you mention that the early church had and held to a “doctrine” of reincarnation. So I wait for you to tell all of us where this doctrine is listed. Is it in the teaching of the 12? Is it found in the Pre-Nicene, Nicene or Post Nicene Fathers? Keep in mind, a doctrine is an affirmed written statement of what is believed about a certain belief. If you are going to do this you would be much more successful to refer to the Gnostics.

In your last reply you say, “I have read Origen's works and they are characterized by ambiguity-for every quote you provide I could provide another which would contradict it.” How am I not to misunderstand this statement when you have already told me that you have not read Origin’s work, which is quite evident, otherwise you would have not made such a statement as: “…every quote you provide I could provide another which would contradict it.”

I am very sorry if I have hurt your feelings, but you must know by now to make statements as you have on this thread that you have asked for it.

Again, if you came to me and said I believe that Christ was an enlightened teacher of reincarnation and I believe that he may have given us some words which can be understood, by those who are enlightened, then I think you have something to talk about. But since you have been so dogmatic in your statements it is easy for anyone to misunderstand what you feel in your heart. One thing you will learn about Scotland.com is that there are some very intelligent and learned people(and I am sure you are one of them)—and if one thinks they are going to slip something through without being noticed, they have another thing coming.

In closing, I apologize if I have hurt your feelings and will be more careful the next time around. It is nice to have people like you who can push us to new levels of learning. Keep it up (smile).

Celto

[ANDY-J]

Celto,
First let me clarify a few misconceptions which you have.I am not trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes by regurgitating a load of mindless tosh.My beliefs are central to my life,they shape my values and attitudes and I constantly study all manner of religious and theological writings in order that I may hopefully learn and grow spiritually.Spiritual growth is my one aim in life and everything else is secondary to this.Also I am not so very young.I am 35 and for the past twenty years I have adhered to the doctrine of karma and reincarnation and only comparatively recently have I made a connection between the teachings of Christ and reincarnation.I have a clear conception of how Karmic law operates and I discerned what I believed were parallels between the teachings of Christ and Karma.For example Christ's observation that 'many who are first will be last and the last first'.I saw this as being a statement of how Karma operates in that a rich man must in some future incarnation experience poverty and hardship while conversely a poor man will be obliged to incarnate in a materially comfortable life in order to maintain a Karmic balance.When Christ states 'he who is least among you is the greatest'I considered that he may have been stating that those who live harsh and difficult lives have the greatest capacity for spiritual growth.Also I understand that enlightened spirits(which Bhuddists term boddhisatvas)deliberately choose to incarnate as the lowest of the low in order to help others attain enlightenment.Christ states'he who has shall be given more and he who has nothing,even the little he has shall be taken from him'.This precisely describes my understanding of Karmic law whereby a man who commits evil will create the karmic circumstances where he will commit yet more evil and a man who seeks spiritual truth will create the karmic conditions where he may attain spiritual growth.In the words of the Sanskrit epic the Ramayama'there is a hidden meaning in all things-he who finds it will be the true winner'.My sole aim is to find 'hidden meanings'or divine truths whether in the Koran or the teachings of Christ.People are perfectly free to say that my interpretations of Christ's teachings are flawed but I believe that my arguments are valid.I am only concerned with divine truths and I feel that I approach the study of textual evidence objectively and without any wishful thinking which leads me to discern meanings in any given text which are invalid.Also I should clarify the ambiguity of my statement that reincarnation was a doctrine of the early christian church.The 'early christian church'was by no means a unified school of thought and it would be perfectly true to state that amongst the many factions and sects which then existed there were some which adhered to the doctrine of reincarnation.There were undeniably early christians who believed in reincarnation but as to how widespread this belief was I am unsure although my understanding is that the doctrine was reasonably pervasive.I do not find this fact surprising however given the influences of Greek scholarship within the Mediterranean region during the period.To say that I have stated that I have not read Origen's work is being economical with the truth.Where precisely have I stated this?I've certainly read some of his work but admittedly not a great deal.


[Edited by ANDY-J on 21st August 2001 at 13:45]

[Celto]

Andy-J,

Fair enough...I will drop the matter of scholarship...I am with you.

Perhaps a good place for you to start would be with the Gnostic writers. As far as I have been able to see, they have been the only ones who have taught "clearly" the doctrine of reicarnation among those who could be classified as "Christian." Of course, some would argue whether they are Christian, but they certainly fall into the Christ genre. You may want to pick up some of Elain Pagels books. She is a prof. at Princeton University. She seem to have a pretty good grasp on this subject. And if you get the chance, pick up the book, "The Nag Hammadi Library." You may already know this, but this is a collection of Gnostic writings in which you will find teachings on reincarnation.

Celto