Deism.

[ANDY-J]

The sheer complexity of life and the natural order and beauty which exist in the universe cannot have occured simply by chance.It shows evidence of a benign and provident creator.While I do not therefor question the existence of God I do challenge conventional christian doctrines.I simply see no need for any complex theological or institutional framework of worship.I would argue that the only proper means of attaining a true knowledge of God is through empirical reasoning and contemplation whereby an individual can reach a more enlightened state of being and throw off the shackles of materialism.Christianity may indeed be a path to achieving greater spiritual insight but if so it is only one path amongst many.The unquestioning belief of certain christians that scriptures are a revelation of God's word is in my opinion misguided.Conventional christian worship can only be a good thing if it opens peoples's eyes to the fact that the true purpose of life is to love God and your fellow human beings as you love yourself.There should in my opinion simply be no place for theorising or dogma.

[explorer]

Hi Andy, although I do believe that many man made rules and theroies have entered into the church, I do believe that the scriptures are a revelation of God. Words put to paper inspired by the Holy Spirit. In fact, I believe that it states so several times through out the bible. I have to believe that if God is all powerful, he then also has the abilbity to protect his word and keep it pure. Just as he protected the line of David so that the Savior could be born. Christianity the only path? I'm not so sure about that. I do know the bible says that a stumbling block would be placed before the Jewish nation and that it would be their inability to accept Jesus as the Son of God. But it also says that the truth would be revealed to them. Even in the bible it shows the constant conflict of people wanting to adhere to the old laws and rituals of the Old Testament rather than accepting what God had done for them by sending Jesus. We were totally unable to keep the laws, by breaking one law, we were sinful and unfit to come before God. By sending Jesus, God simplified the process. Simply believe and have faith the Jesus covered our sins. I think most of Jesus messages were about love and kindness to others and to love God. To me the bible has layers. If you sit and read it like its just another novel, you get the bare facts. If you read it with the desire to understand, then it becomes many layered. Each time you go back to it and think on it, you understand a little more. God is constantly trying to get us to understand the same message, through different words and different pictures through out the bible. He gives examples of his pure love for us to show us that he isnt simply a God that excepted servitude. In Jude, after Moses died, Satan came to try to take his body. God sent the Arch Angel Michael to rebuke Satan and to take Moses body and hide it. That action served no useful purpose to God. God had no need of the body and neither did Mose. God was unwilling to have his beloved servants body defiled. When Israel left Eygt, there was a great cloud between them and the Egyptians in pursuit. That cloud was just something physical shown to the Israelites to give them a sense of saftey. God didnt need it to be there. But as I said, I am not a Christian, nor am I a scholar of the bible. These are just my opinions. I do strongly feel like we were give two things to help us with our journey through life, the scriptures and the Holy Spirit. I have often told my kids not to simply believe what some one says about the bible, they have to search it out for themselves. Find their own answers, if they are still confused, then I tell them to look within their heart, because the truth of something should be confirmed there by the Holy Spirit.

Sorry Andy, didnt mean to ramble. I'm comfortable with you so feel open to express my believes. Smile

[annamac]

Andy-J,

I am a bit puzzled by your position so bear with me please. You seem to be in agreement with the lighter precepts of the Christian faith, as long as they do not impose their behvavior modifications, or insist on appealing to objective instruction over and above subjective opinion. The Bible IS the collection of empirical reasoning and contemplation whereby individuals (the prophets, apostles, and now us) can reach a more heightened state of knowing. Christianity, as I understand it ascribes this anthology of insight to divine illumination and guidance, enclosed in the canon of sacred scripture. That point is nonfalsefiable.

You then argue that there is no place for institutional framework in religion, and that there is no place for theorising and dogma. But this assertion itself is a well-framed dogmatic theorization, and if enough people thought this way, and so dogmatically I might add, the establishment of noninstitutionalism would happen.
Some are so concerned about NOT getting locked into dogma, that they set up dogma as a shield. It is a trap from the assumption that not being too theologically specific is a feature of uninhibited open-mindedness. Not so. You have good points Andy-J; you too explorer, but your diction swacks with subjective relativism, a proven intellectual barren wasteland; I hope I am wrong. Keep up the dialogue and keep it civil, and don't be too afraid of getting too close to the flame. The wisdom of God burns bright there.




[Edited by annamac on 15th February 2001 at 16:34]

[explorer]

thanks for you input and for your concern that we keep the discussion civil. Andy and I have never spoken to each other in anything other than a civil tone. As far as that goes neither has Nonson and I. From what I seen on Nonson, he only fires when shot at.

You say that we swack of subjective relativism which is a proven intelluctual barren wasteland. I guess I may be to simple minded, because that went right over my head. As I stated, I am no scholar. To clarify what you said, please give me an example. I am trying very hard to not take offense to your comments. I feel like your on the verge of belittling my beliefs.

[Rachel_E]

Hey kids, I might join in on this little discussion you're having. BUt I'll warn you now... I'm not a scholar. Everything I know, I've learned through reading the Bible myself, and talking with others (which I then go back and make sure their beliefs agree with the Bible). I believe that the Bible is the infalliable word of God. Oh, and by the way, I'm not big on using lots of theological terminology. Well, I guess I use some, but some of the stuff in the previous discussions went over my head a little bit. If the terms were defined a little bit for me, I might have a response to them, but as of now, I just kinda sat there and went 'huh?'

I agree with Andy to an extent. By the way, Hi Andy!
I believe that the purpose of my life, and in all of ours, is designed to first, love God, and secondly, to love others as we would love ourselves. That's taught over and over in the Bible, adn in that order.

But as to how to come to God, we differ on that. Obviously, since I believe that the Bible is the true and only written word of God, then I believe what it says in there. And in the Bible it clearly states that Jesus is the only intercessor between us and God and that Jesus IS God. So I believe that He's the only way to Heaven. He took all of the punishment for every sin we can and will ever commit. And if you're like me, it's a lot.
Obviously, you;d have to believe the Bible is truth in order to believe that though.

Shoot, I'd like to write more, but I'm being called to a meeting. I"ll stop in soon though.

[explorer]

Rachel, I'm looking forward to hear more from you on this subject.

[ANDY-J]

Annamac,
I will try and clarify my position as regards religion.Firstly even as a non christian I read the bible and I would accept the efficacy of certain scriptures as a means of spiritual guidance.I do not however accept (unlike certain christian fundamentalists)that the scriptures are necessarily the word of God.Neither do I accept your assertion that they are 'a collection of empirical reasoning and contemplation'.I haven't read the old testament for some time but I seem to recall one book entitled 'song of songs'and I would be intrigued to know the spiritual message which this particular book was supposed to convey.The scriptures are filled with inconsistencies and contradictions and much that is written is confusing rather than enlightening.It is my belief that many christians who adhere unquestioningly to religious credo often lose sight of the fact that, as Jean-Jacques Rousseau puts it,'The real duties of religion are independent of human institutions;that a righteous heart is the true temple of the Godhead.'(Emil.Rousseau.1974.p.276)