Witchery Do, Witchery Don't - Paganism & Scots.

[McBeaty]

The re-emmergence of Paganism interests me, in effect I have no problems with the 'Pagan' faith, and have often come to it's defence in the face of Christian bigitry towards it.

HOWEVER, where I am less sure/comfotable is this apparent attempt to show it as a CELTIC religion, somehow intrinsic to the spiritual essence of the Celtic nations (such as Scotland).

Let us be clear on one point MODERN Paganism has no inherant lineage with anciant Pagan spiritual culture or belief systems. It is WHOLLY a contemporary invention, with links ONLY IN NAME with those faiths termed 'pagan' - which were in actuallity never ONE cohesive 'faith' in the first place but rather many.

AGAIN, I must stress that this is NOT an attack on modern 'Paganism', I fully respect the right of it's followers to practise thier beliefs freely...BUT...

I have seen too many people attempting to suggest that 'Paganism' is the 'original' and somehow 'traditional' belief system of the 'Scots'!

Celtic belief systems were in fact as diverse as the tribes that made up the Celtic races...There was no one encompassing practise.

From idolitary, to sacred natural shrine worship, to canibalism, to the taking of heads, to a host of pantheons of gods spirits and demons, Celtic beliefs were mostly regional.

The Druidic system, while the largest and easily recognisable sytem associated with the Gaulic Celts was by no means universal in practise...And to add to this we must remember that in the case of Scotland, the Pictish peoples held thier own beliefs quite seperate from thier Scots counterparts!

The only truly inclusive specifically Celtic belief system that we CAN assert was more universally parctised among the Scottish people (including the Picts) was the Irish/Celtic Church of Christianity.

This faith, quite distinct from the Roman Christian Church, absorbed many varied pre-Christian Celtic ideas and melded them with the new Christianity to give the Celtic folk of Scotland and Ireland a faith that was mutually acceptable to 'pagans' and Christians alike.

Essentially, what I am saying is that there is/was NO singular and Universal Celtic pagan system that we can attach to the Scottish people as a traditional FOLK BELIEF other than the Celtic Church (perhaps).

I'm sure it all makes for a pretty picture, and gives the stone cicles in Scotland a re-newed practical use (as 'Pagans' rush to dance round them in sacred 'ancient' [i.e. 19th century>] ceremonies) - but it has no place in histroical fact.

Now were groups of you to suddenly start drowning tethered victims in pete bogs or ride round the city square in Glasgow or Dundee cutting off peoples heads for totemistic/shamanistic worship, well I'd probably see the Celtic link...But as the closest you get to that is worrying the occasional goat or chicken, I think we'll draw a close on the 'traditional' aspect to your beliefs.

AGAIN, I don't mean to offend here - I find your new found spirituality very admirable, and generally uplifting...

But lets drop the whole “Ossian” romantic notions of the nobility of barbarians, and it's revisionist assertions on the history of Scotland. There's no place for it in anything other than folk lore and mythical tales.

Thank you for your opinion McBeaty; however, many of us who are discussing this have books that are contrary to what you have stated.
I myself have books, not romanticized books or any new-ager stuff, but historical books on people's research of the people of that time. Paganism did not only encompass what we regard as the celtic region of today, but had reaches into the Scandinavian countries and Germany.

I also hate to disagree with you, but regardless of a tribes practice, they basically worshipped the same gods and goddesses. There was also a common law between all tribes in regards to punishment. Regardless of the distance between tribes, there was a link. Kinda like a "law of the land."

I've also watched several documentaries on the Druids/Pagans/Picts, etc. You do these ancient people a great disservice by calling them "barbarians." Their practices may have been crude, but all in all, their beliefs weren't.

I would like to add that these ancient peoples practices were no less horrific than the Roman Churches practices were much later. And these people were considered "civilized."

[This message has been edited by Becca (edited 25 August 2000).]

[McBeaty]

Originally posted by Becca:
...I myself have books, not romanticized books or any new-ager stuff, but historical books

Hmmmmm...Obviously not the same 'historical books as me then!

Like Jean Louis Brunaux (universally applauded) "The Celtic Gauls: Gods, Rites and Sanctuaries"....Or, indeed Bradley's "The Social Foundations of Prehistoric Britain"....Or, perhaps, Morris' "The Age of Arthur: A History of the British Isles From 350 to 650"...O'Rahilly's "Early Irish History and Mythology"....

But , of course these are only standard university editions of course....I'm sure there are lots of flaws and glaring omissions.

...Paganism did not only encompass what we regard as the Celtic region of today, but had reaches into the Scandinavian countries and Germany.

Er, actually no. 'P'aganism didn't - but 'p'aganism did...

Forgive the correction...But if we are going to be nit picking we might as well do it properly!

Again, archaeology shows that there was a diversity of belief systems practised, from locale to locale, some with similarities, but others completely unique - but certainly no great all encompassing universal faith one could term 'P'aganism. This is a 19th century invention.

...I also hate to disagree with you, but regardless of a tribes practice, they basically worshipped the same gods and goddesses.

Oh, feel free, disagree with me all you want - I really don't mind, honestly!

....Er, but historians, archaeologists, anthropologists, theological scholars, and experts on pre-Christian/pagan, early British and Celtic culture such as Kendrick, Bowen, Carney, Owen, Chardwick, Hughes, Thompson (excellent work on the early Germans), Cruden...etc, etc...might disagree with you!

(Oh, these are just authors in English, there are some excellent works in French on the Celtic Gauls that shouldn't be missed...I'm afraid I have to make do with translated extracts though as I don't speak French yet).

...I've also watched several documentaries on the Druids/Pagans/Picts, etc.

....Really...! ?

You do these ancient people a great disservice by calling them "barbarians." [/b]

Actually if you read my posting correctly you'll see I didn't refer to the Celts as 'barbarians', I used the term in conjunction with remarks regarding the “Ossian” romantasistic notions of - what they called - the 'noble savage' (Napoleon was a great fan of this nonsense).

I would like to add that these ancient peoples practices were no less horrific than the Roman Churches practices were much later. And these people were considered "civilized." [/b]

...We finally agree on something...However, as my remarks were (as clearly stated) neither an attack on the pre-Christian tribal beliefs of the aboriginal Scots, nor a criticism of contemporary 'P'aganism, your point is rather a mute one...Wouldn't you say?

(I go to great lengths to stress this no less than THREE times in my posting.)

I can understand you natural instinct to jump to the defence of your personal beliefs...But defending yourself when there is clearly no attack is a little superfluous.

;D

Excuse me? I didn't jump nearly as high as you did in your response.

Thanks for the lovely discussion.

[McBeaty]

Originally posted by Becca:
Excuse me? I didn't jump nearly as high as you did in your response.

Thanks for the lovely discussion.

...Jump...Me?

Er, not really, it tripped off the keyboard as easy as swatting a fly (no disrespect intended)...It's hardly hard work stating the blindingly obvious!

...Wooly romantasism always makes me smile.

...Oh, and as to the 'lovely discussion' come back bit...Hee hee...I must admit being somewhat disappointed, tut tut.

I left enough loop holes in my posting to allow you a considered retort, a shame you didn't take them (bobbybingo would have been in there like a shot! - I myself can see at least two good intelligent avenues of 'attack' on my statements)...In fact, at this rate I may just have to start answering my own postings under a different name!!! LOL

Seriously, my posting was intended to inform, I have no pleasure in 'putting down' other members of this forum - I repeat, I went to great lengths to note that this was not a personal attack on 'P'aganism. But the whole idea of having a forum is to post diverse discussion points and informative comments and opinions.

I feel a little sad that you obviously feel I was - though it is regretable that you could not have instead articulated this 'offence' into a constructive observation of the failings of my argument - rather than a two line knee jerk responce.

The study of pre-Christian Scotland is a enormously exciting and interesting subject area. The many various 'pagan' belief systems are equally absorbing and shed much light on the basic human condition and requirments of us as we are today.

'Paganism', with a small 'p', had a very important part to play in the moulding of the Caladonian peoples and the way in which they formulated a cohesive national identity...But no more so than the Celtic Irish Church (and in particular, St. Columba who - it should be noted - converted the native Scots and Pictish folk to Christianity without resorting to the violent extremes of the Roman Church)...

Pre-Dark Age & Dark Age faiths are building blocks which together - pagan & Christian - helped to create a united 'Scotland'...In that they are already important enough without having to create on top some sort of revisionist and faulse mythalogical cultural heritage/role for them.

Todays Pagans, in conjuction with other New Age spiritual paths, are equally - but quite seperately from origianal pagan beliefs - important to the Scottish people, as any new found spirituality in our people can only be said to be a good thing in today's sceptical and synical world.

Contemporary Pagans do not have to create any tenuous 'heritage' for themselves, with a mythological past, they are an important part of modern Scotland in thier own right.

...So you see, in my way, I was actually defending modern Paganism, not disparaging it!

Is your real name James McFadden?

He was a boss of mine who talked in circles too. I hated it.

If we talk, you need to dumb down your replies some. My intellect is not "that" high. So I suppose, you need to toe Bobbybingo along with you when you post or maybe I should recruit him?
FYI, I was not in the least offended by what you stated previously, contrary to what you think.

[jinmich]

Hey you two!

When I first read that Becca said "Thanks for the lovely discussion" I too thought that she was being snotty (for lack of a better word....just cant think of the word I want to use) but what if she were sincere?

Seems thats what I always do...think the negative first, then strike, then have to apologize for it. Ugh! Wish I knew how to stop that on my own so I wouldnt have to ask or even wait to post on it.

How do we post without making it look like an attack?

Mr McBeaty any ideas? Besides the usual retraction after the hurt has already incurred.

I need things "dumbed down" too. Im sorry. Maybe thats why I stay away from a lot of topics.

Did I help any or just wasting my time in here?

Janet