Paganism..

[Rhiannon_Gloaming]

[Warning: VERY LONG post because of very long list of texts on paganism and related subjects]

<<Paganism if you take the term literally means "someone who has no religion". Not too sure if over the years the term has been corrupted and twisted over time.>>

hmmm, and I was told that pagan was the term for, literally, "country dweller." That would fit with paganism being associated with respect (or worship) of the forces (or dieties) of nature. Country people lived and died, well or poorly, by the whim of nature, the harvest, the weather. No wonder they had a superstitious respect that more industrialized townfolk had left behind in the rush to "progress."

Anyway, FYI all, here's a very long list suggested by Isaac Bonewits, a renowned pagan scholar in this area. (No, I'm not pagan, I just play one on t.v.)(that's what I'd choose if anyone held a gun to my head and insisted I pick one "organized religious belief." I'm Agnostic. But pagans sure do have great rituals. :-) ) The commentary is his, and if nothing else it will alert anyone contemplating a serious study of this topic how much of life's work it is. When in doubt.... consult your nearest tree. :-)

Rhiannon

<<Books recommended by Isaac Bonewits:

• The Living Isles: A Natural History of Britain and Ireland, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0563203692/isaacbonewits> Peter Crawford; BBC Pubs, 1991; ISBN 0563203692; hardcover. This beautiful book provides the essential biological background to any pictures we may care to paint of what life in the Islands was like during Paleopagan and Mesopagan
times.

• Myth and Symbols in Pagan Europe: Early Scandinavian and Celtic Religions, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0815624417/isaacbonewits> H. R. Ellis Davidson, Syracuse Univ. Press, 1989, ISBN 0815624417, paper. Though this great scholar wrote many excellent books, this one emphasizes the many
similarities between Celtic, Germanic and Scandinavian Paleopaganism, winding up supporting the Dumezilian approach.

• A History of Religious Ideas, by Mircea Eliade, in 3 volumes. Vol. 1 - From
the Stone Age to the Eleusinian Mysteries
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0226204014/isaacbonewits> (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1981, ISBN 0226204014, paper), Vol. 2 - From Gautama Buddha to the Triumph of Christianity <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0226204030/isaacbonewitsA/> (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1985, ISBN 0226204030, paper), and Vol. 3 - From Muhammad to the Age of Reforms
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0226204057/isaacbonewitsA/> (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1988, ISBN 0226204057, paper). While just about everything he wrote about myth and religion is worth reading, this is some
of the best material on the history of religious ideas available, organized both chronologically and thematically. It includes an enormous amount of information on Paleopaganism and early Christianity.

I also highly recommend his
• Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy,
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0691017794/isaacbonewitsA/> (Princeton Univ Press, 1972, ISBN 0691017794, paper) which will demonstrate why it's a serious dilution and misapplication of the term to call Druids,"shamans."

• The Druids, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0802841589/isaacbonewits> Peter Berresford Ellis, Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1995; ISBN 0802837980; paper. A more recent work than Piggott's, just as grouchy but multidisciplinary and informed by both Dumezilian theory and the latest scholarly research. He makes the excellent point that modern would-be Druids should be far more
concerned about the imminent demise of Celtic languages and cultures than they usually are.

He has a brand new book out,
• Chronicles of the Celts <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0786706066/isaacbonewits> (Carroll & Graf, 1999; ISBN: 0786706066, hardcover ), which contains mythology from all six Celtic nations, not just the Irish and Welsh. He includes stories from obscure sources, with variations based on the stories he heard as a child in Ireland, and has as a preface one of the best brief explanations of the Celts as Indo-Europeans I've seen. Unfortunately, he
also falls into the "light = good, dark = bad" dualism of the Christian scribes he is so anxious to correct everywhere else. I'd give it an 80%/20% scholarly/imaginative rating, putting it up there with some of the best Celtic story collections.

You might also want to see his
• Dictionary of Celtic Mythology <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0195089618/isaacbonewits> (Oxford Univ Press 1994; ISBN: 0195089618, paper).

• The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles, Their Nature and Legacy, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0631189467/isaacbonewits> Ronald Hutton, Blackwell Publishers, 1993, ISBN 0631189467; paper. A brilliant review of the history, prehistory and psuedohistory of British Paleopaganism. This is an excellent tour of all "the things we know that just aint so," and also belongs in every Druid's library.

• The New Comparative Mythology, An Anthropological Assessment of the Theories
of Georges Dumezil, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0520041038/isaacbonewits> C.Scott Littleton; 3rd Edition, University of California, 3rd edition, 1982; ISBN 0520041038; paper. This is the best critical introduction to Dumezil's work, with an extensive bibliography of relevant books and articles by Dumezil and others. While others (including myself) have enlarged upon his
theories, his views of common Indo-European cultural patterns (including religious beliefs, social classes, institutions and practices) were essentially sound and deserve careful study.

• A Guide to Ogam, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D1870684176/isaacbonewits> Damian McManus, Maynooth Monographs 4, An Sagart, St. Patrick's College, Maynooth Ireland, 1991; ISBN 1870684176; hardcover. This is the only academic summation of all the genuine scholarship on the topic that I know to have
been published in the last several decades. It will certainly cure a great deal of romantic nonsense spawned by Iolo Morganwg and Robert Graves! Out-of-print, but Amazon or your local Irish Import store should be able to get it for you.

• Women, Androgynes, and Other Mythical Beasts,
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0226618501/isaacbonewits> Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty, University of Chicago, 1982; ISBN 0226618501; paper. O'Flaherty (now known as Doniger) gives an extensive discussion of the
sexual politics of the I-E myth system using sound research and a clear presentation.

She's also the author of:
• Shiva, the Erotic Ascetic, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0195202503/isaacbonewits>

• The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology,
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0520040988/isaacbonewits>

• Other Peoples's Myths, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0226618579/isaacbonewits> and an
excellent translation of the Rig Veda,
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0140444025/isaacbonewits> among
many other scholarly books and articles.

• The Druids,
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0500273634/isaacbonewits> Stuart Piggott, Thames and Hudson, 1985; ISBN 0500273634; paper. An excellent book, covering the archaeological, classical, and historical evidence concerning the Druids, both Paleopagan and Mesopagan, albeit in a very grouchy, Secular Humanist (all priesthoods are Evil) style.

• Celtic Heritage: Ancient Tradition in Ireland and Wales, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0500270392/isaacbonewits> Alwyn & Brinley Rees; Thames & Hudson, 1989; ISBN 0500270392; paper. A classic Dumezilian analysis of Celtic mythology and religion, based primarily on Irish and secondarily on Welsh materials. Gives an excellent overview of
basic patterns of belief, showing how they reflected the social structures of the Celts -- and vice versa! -- and will explain much of the cosmology underlying Celtic mythology and ritual.

• Pagan Celtic Britain, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0094723303/isaacbonewits> Anne Ross, Academy Chicago Pub, 1996; ISBN 0094723303; paper. This is one of the most important classics on Celtic cultures ever published and should be in every Druid's library. She covers the archeology and prehistory of Celtic
Britain -- "warts and all" -- including a lot of stuff romantics would prefer be forgotten, yet with respect for the people involved.

Also highly recommended are her books
• Druids, Gods & Heroes from Celtic Mythology, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0872269191/isaacbonewits> Peter Bedrick Books, 1994 (ISBN 0872269191) -- with some great artwork -- and

• The Life and Death of a Druid Prince, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/IS...isaacbonewits> by her and Don Robins (Touchstone Books, 1991, ISBN 0671741225). This last one, a brilliant bit of archeological detective speculation, is sadly out of print, but well worth asking Amazon.com to hunt it down.

• Reflections on Resemblance, Ritual, and Religion, <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0195055454/isaacbonewits> Brian K. Smith; Oxford University Press, 1989; ISBN 0195055454; hardcover. A superb introduction to the complex world of Vedic ritual and metaphysics. Much of what puzzles him will make perfectly good sense to Neopagan ritualists, and will give us some glimpses of what western Druidism must have been like. Out of print.

• Stonehenge, the Indo-European Heritage,
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0882294822/isaacbonewits> Leon E. Stover and Bruce Kraig, Nelson-Hall, 1978; ISBN 0882294822; hardcover (paperback edition is out of print). A harsh but fascinating look at the people associated with the various stages of Stonehenge's construction. The
authors belong to the "hard primitivism" school of I-E studies, are hostile to religion and positively rabid about clergy, but the book does an excellent job of straightening out the bewildering array of prehistoric and early I-E cultures in Britain. The bibliography and research notes are great.

>I do not read German, French, Spanish or any other modern (non-English based) languages fluently, so I cannot recommend books in other languages, although a great deal of material has been published in French and German (especially). I would be happy to list good ones if scholars with appropriate academic credentials were to send them to me.

>I do NOT recommend Robert Graves' The White Goddess, nor any of the works of D.J. Conway (Celtic Magic, Norse Magic, etc.), Tom Cross aka "Tadhg MacCrossan" (The Sacred Cauldron), Murry Hope (Practical Celtic Magic), Douglas Monroe (21 Lessons of Hogwash -- excuse me, Merlyn), Edward Williams aka "Iolo Morganwg" (Welsh Triads Vol. 3, The Barddas) -- source of much of Monroe's garbage -- nor any works by others based on the writings of any of these mentioned authors, nor those of Merlin Stone, Barbara Walker, or other revisionist ideologues. Over 90% of what is available in print about the ancient Druids is nonsense, so read carefully and look for unverified
(and/or unverifiable) assumptions, nationalistic biases, scientistic dogmas,
monotheistic reinterpretations, Victorian whitewashes, references to Atlantis and/or ancient Egypt and/or UFOs, claims of intact underground family traditions of Druidism, "sacred druid trees" that are actually North
American vines, racism, anti-semiticism, sexism (patriarchal or matriarchal), hetero- or homophobia, chapters (or entire books) on "Celtic Shamanism" or "Celtic Christianity" or "Culdees," etc.

>When in doubt, consult your nearest tree...


[This message has been edited by Rhiannon Gloaming (edited 23 August 2000).]

[little_lass]

Its nice to see some open minded people....good thread. I would love to share any ideas or thoughts...
Unfortunately, you can not deny the strong ties of Celtic and Druid..paganism. It is a beautiful "religion" or belief very open and quite honest with out the restrictions of "man" (I mean that in a generic sense not gender)
I have found a few books helpful in my path.
Llewellyn's :Celtic Magic By D.J Conway
The Urban Pagan. Magical Living in a 9-5 World by Patricia Telesco..funny title great book.
Faery Wicca Kisma K Stepanich
Falcon, Feather, & Valkyrie Sword D.J Conway.
and others but I do not have titles handy..

I was born in to Catholisim but was blessed to follow my Celtic heritage and pagan roots.
I have read tarot in the past and enjoy it depending on who I am reading for...can be very draining.
I Sapphire I would love to share thoughts with you.
I am just introducing my self into my new world which is highly influenced by my aunt who is on her way to being a Stregan High Priestess. I am non denominational right now and eager to learn.
Feel free to write
Blessed be..


------------------
little_lass
be kind to all..life is short but karma lasts an eternity

Hi LittleLass, if you check over in the Clan forum, some of us have started two threads over there to discuss Paganism, Druids, etc.
One is "Hey Celto" which I hope will be just a thread to just talk about anything. The other one is "Clan Iona," which I hope we can post our Pagan topic things.
Hope you join us.