Convincing Atheists

[dattaswami]

The logic of atheists is based on perception (Pratyaksha Pramana), which was propagated by the sage Charvaka. Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes. Infact in the logic (Tarka Sastra) all the means of knowledge are based on perception only. In the inference (Anumana) also, the fire on the hill is inferred by its smoke. But the relationship between the fire and smoke is perceived with the naked eyes only. Similarly other means of knowledge are also based on the perception only. Thus Charvaka forms the basic of the entire logic and without logic there is no knowledge. The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception. The divine miracles performed by the human form of Lord prove that there is a power above the logic. These miracles are seen by the naked eyes. The atheists must be allowed to prove whether the miracles are simply magic tricks. When they cannot prove, they must accept the existence of super power above the logic. If they do not accept this they are contradicting their own basis, which is the perception. The divine miracles are experienced by the devotees and the experience cannot be contradicted. If the experience is contradicted, the experience of the atheists is also contradicted. Therefore atheists must be open-minded and should not be conservative. If they are conservative they have no right to criticize the religious conservatism.

The theory of Vedas and Bhagavath Gita never contradicts the perception and therefore the logic of atheists becomes the basis of the spiritual knowledge. The Lord comes in human form and this human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Even the miracles performed by demons establish the existence of super power. Therefore to convince the atheists the miracles of the Lord are not necessary. When they are convinced about the existence of the Super power (Maya), the possessor of the Super Power, the Lord, coming in human form must be also accepted because the form is seen by the naked eyes. The salvation is breakage of the bonds in this world. Since the bonds of this world exist based on the perception, the salvation is also existing based on the perception. Since the family members and the money are perceived by the eyes, the bonds with them are also perceived. Thus the salvation (Moksha) must be accepted by the atheists. A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’.

Since the human form is perceived, Sayujya or Kaivalya is also perceived and must be accepted by the atheists. The Bliss is derived by the devotee from the divine knowledge of the human form of the Lord. Therefore the Bliss is also true according to atheists. Thus the goal, the means to please the Lord (Sadhana) and the fruit of Sadhana (Moksha and Kaivalya) are perceived and exist in this world itself. Veda says ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’, ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’ which mean that the Lord in human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Veda also says ‘Ihachet Avedeet’, which means that everything is true as seen in this world itself. This is called ‘Jeevanmukthi’, which means attaining the salvation while one is alive and not after death. The salvation after the death is not true because that has no basis of perception. Thus if the atheists are little bit patient and leave their aggressive nature of criticism, they are best fitted in the true spiritual knowledge of Vedas. In fact Swami Vidyaranya included the philosophy of Charvaka in his book as one of the logical philosophies (Darsanaas).

[MAGUS]

The greatest murderers in history were all religious if they had not been indoctrinated with this religous nonsense since they were babies they might have turned out all right.

[dattaswami]

Originally Posted by MAGUS

The greatest murderers in history were all religious if they had not been indoctrinated with this religous nonsense since they were babies they might have turned out all right.

There are two root causes for the entire chaos and terrorism in this world. One is the thirst for earning money and the other is the religious fanatic. Due to money, people are quarreling, hereas due to religion, countries are quarreling. Unless these two root causes are eradicated we cannot achieve world peace. The tree will not die by cutting leaves and branches. It dies only by cutting its roots. There is no use in earning the extra money. Due to excess money, quarrels, mental worries and several other problems arise. Finally, it ends in loss only and not in any profit. You have to leave all this extra money here only and quit this world alone. Your issues may lose that money given by you. Such sinful extra money brings problems not only to you but also to your children. Neither yourself nor your children will be happy and peaceful. This entire world is the property of God and take whatever is required from it. This is said in Gita, (“Yavanartha….”).

In these days, buffet system is followed during feasts. In this system, large vessels contain various food items and people take food from these vessels according to their requirement. Similarly, God created this entire world and you can take the wealth from it according to your requirement. People are not following the same system when they are taking wealth from this world. The peculiarity is that most rich people follow this buffet system in the feasts but do not follow the same when it comes to earning the money. ‘Esavasya Upanishad’ says that one should return back this extra money to the Lord. Otherwise, the Lord will give the troubles.

In buffet system, if one takes extra food in his plate by over ambition and ignorance for a moment, he returns back immediately before starting eating. Veda says that you must return back the extra money for the God’s work if taken by ignorance. In the buffet system if you eat the extra food, you will suffer from diseases. Similarly, if you enjoy the extra money, God will punish you in several ways.

In this world, people belonging to any religion think that their religion only is the true religion. They think that the God of their religion can alone give the salvation and the worship of that God should be according to their religion only. They also condemn other religions and invite people to convert people into their religion. They do lot of work to establish their religion only in the entire world which shows their ambition. It is just like Alexander’s ambition to make the entire world his kingdom. Alexander wanted to extend his kingdom. But, even he returned back after fighting with Porus (Purushotama) on seeing the loss of life in the battle. But, the ambition of religious fanatics is not subsided on seeing any amount of loss of life. Religion is considered to be backed with spiritual knowledge and the religious people are expected to be free from ambition. We can excuse ambition of any ignorant person like Alexander.

The heart of a religious fanatic will not change by any amount of kindness or love expressed in the appeals. Such appeals can change only the heart and the change in the heart is always temporary. Change in the intelligence brought by knowledge based on logic is always real and permanent. Intelligence (Buddhi) is considered to be the driver of this body, which is like a chariot running by the senses, which are like the horses. If the driver is convinced, the entire chariot along with the horses is in the correct path. The terrorist will not change by love or kindness shown to him. He becomes the terrorist due to the wrong knowledge that enters his brain. He was convinced by that knowledge. That knowledge can be changed only by the right knowledge. A diamond can only be cut by another diamond. Similarly, one type of knowledge can only be replaced by another type of knowledge. Then only, he will be convinced and changed forever.

So far, the trials made to change the terrorist were beating around the bush and therefore, they did not have much effect. Today, SRI GURU DATTA is giving the right knowledge to remove the religious conservatism.
Universal-Spirituality

[tig]

Originally Posted by dattaswami

There are two root causes for the entire chaos and terrorism in this world. One is the thirst for earning money and the other is the religious fanatic. Due to money, people are quarreling, hereas due to religion, countries are quarreling. Unless these two root causes are eradicated we cannot achieve world peace.

totally agree

so lets ban capitalism AND religion

[dattaswami]

Originally Posted by tig

totally agree

so lets ban capitalism AND religion

Secularism really means that the same medicine is present in every cup and you can take the medicine present in all the cups with equal liking. Secularism also means that you can take the medicine from any cup and respect other cups with equality. But the present secularism has ended in a horrible sense by which the medicine is not taken at all from a single cup or all cups. Such sense is misunderstood or misinterpreted secularism. Mahatma Gandhi prayed Eeshwara and Allah equally and that is the real secularism. But in the present secularism you neither pray Eeshwara nor Allah nor both with equality. Instead of such pseudo secularism, it is better not to have secularism at all. Let us like one cup only and take the medicine from that cup. It is better that India remains as a Hindu country and follow the spiritual knowledge of Hinduism sincerely. In the present false secularism, India neither takes the spiritual knowledge from Hinduism nor from any other religion. The government feels shy in uttering even the word God, which is above all the religions like the medicine, which is not related with any cup.

Even in the concept of economic equilibrium of the society, the spiritual knowledge gives the permanent solution. Capitalism is one extreme end and Naxalism is another extreme end. In between these two lie the socialism and communism. Capitalism grows industries by the help of a few rich people and by this several poor people earn their livelihood. Naxalism takes away the concentrated wealth of this few rich people and distributes it among the poor people by force. Socialism and communism try to achieve the same result of Naxalism without force. But these systems have not given permanent solutions. Duryodhana robbed the wealth of Pandavas. Dharmaraja requested Duryodhan to give at least a little kingdom and he was like the socialism. The other Pandavas threatened Duryodhan regarding the consequences of war like communism. Draupadi was highly emotional to kill Duryodhana on the spot like a Naxalist. But all these were controlled and guided by Lord Krishna who is the Lord in human form. When Krishna went to Kauravas, He requested like socialism, threatened like communism and showed His readiness to kill them through the vision of Viswaroopam like Naxalism. Therefore the decision of the ultimate divine government is final and when the right time comes the Lord Himself will become the Naxalist. In such case the present Naxalists are not necessary like Arjuna. Therefore all the people should act under the guidance of a spiritual preacher like Lord Krishna.

In fact Lord Krishna is the real capitalist who is the actual owner of this entire creation. Thus the spiritual knowledge can alone bring the real solution since the Lord is the ultimate authority. Dhrutarashtra who represents the human government supported Duryodhana. But Lord Krishna who was the ultimate government destroyed still Duryodhana. The capitalist tries to find out new ways to hide his wealth, when his wealth is forcibly taken away. Some times the capitalists are discouraged and do not apply their talent to grow the industrialisation. All these paths fail because they beat around the bush. The spiritual knowledge directly hits the bird in the bush. The spiritual knowledge emphasises the unreality of these worldly bonds. These family members were not related in the previous births and will not be related in the future births. Therefore these family bonds are present in this birth only and therefore they are temporary. Any thing that is temporary is always unreal (Yadanityam tat krutakam—Sankara), (Nasato—Gita). The dramatic bond, which is unreal before and after the drama is also unreal during the drama. All the human beings, weather they are your family members or outsiders are having the only relationship with you that is that they are your co-actors. You are cheating an outsider and rob his wealth for the sake of your family members. Both outsiders and the family members are equally related to you as the co-actors only. Why do you cheat one co-actor and favour another co-actor and earn sin? Your family members will not share your sin. They have not asked you to steal the wealth of others and feed them by it. This was the answer given by the family members of Valmiki, who was a robber. One day he tried to rob the sage Narada. Narada told him to go to his family members and put this question. Lord Krishna started Gita with the analysis of self.

All the family members are related to this gross body only in which the blood flows. The self, He referred in the second chapter of the Gita relates to the casual body along with its subtle body. When you fix the word “I” to the casual body along with the subtle body, all the relationships with the gross body vanish. The Lord compared the gross body to the external garment. This again reveals the unreality of the dramatic bonds that exist with these family members. Such divine spiritual knowledge can only transform the rich people and the solution for economic equilibrium becomes permanent. If you appeal a rich man to follow the economic justice without removing his blind family attractions, it is like reducing the temperature by applying ice on the body without killing the bacteria, which are responsible for the fever. Even the realisation of the unreality of these family bonds cannot make him active to continue with his work so that the poor people can be fed. He may become inactive because the ultimate goal is not clear even if he finds all the human beings equally related. The concept of existence of God and that He is pleased when you work actively with a broad view treating all the human beings equal should exist. Thus by following the path of justice and rejecting the injustice one can please the Lord. Pleasing the Lord gives the encouragement. Without this concept the practice of justice becomes dry and useless. This may gradually lead to the practice of injustice also. Thus the kingdom of atheists without God finally ends in the injustice. The atheist will not recognise the underlying divine government. He only accepts the visible human government that established courts and police as executive system for implementing the punishments given by court. Now the atheist will think that if he can mislead the court by false witness and intellectual advocates, he need not fear for the injustice, which gives more enjoyment by accumulation of wealth. He does not fear for God or hell. He fears only for courts and police and knows how to manage them. At present the pseudo secularism is almost like atheism.

In atheism you deny the God and in pseudo secularism you forget the God. Both are one and the same as far as the final effect is concerned. The atheist often argues to show the hell and heaven but I ask him one question, “Have you shown me the entire space of this cosmos and it’s boundaries to show the absence of the hell and heaven”? Of course my question also ends with 50% probability for both existence and non-existence of the hell. But if you practice the path of justice there is no harm to you even if the hell is absent. But if there is hell and if you do not follow the path of justice you are harmed severely (Nanyadasteeti—Gita). Thus the present system of pseudo secularism or atheism is a total failure because the divine government is not recognised properly. Even when we conduct the Independence Day celebrations we are neglecting the recognition of the help of the Lord in achieving the independence. Mahatma Gandhi achieved the independence with the grace of Lord Rama and he was always chanting that divine name. Remembering the fighters for independence without the Lord is like praising the Pandavas for the victory in the war without mentioning the name of Lord Krishna. When Jesus was mentioning about the kingdom of God, a fighter for the independence of the Jews from Roman-rule misunderstood that the new kingdom meant the independence of Jews. He approached Jesus for the assistance in such fight. Jesus clarified him and the new kingdom was meant for the revelation of the invisible divine kingdom. When that ultimate government sanctions, anything happens in this world. Thus in every walk of life, the Lord is neglected and forgotten. People think that praising the Lord is an individual activity and not a public activity. The divine atmosphere is not created in the public offices so that people forget God in the public places where their activities are important. Remembering God at the home only is not affecting their activities because in the home, they become inactive and take rest. Thus you have to extend the spiritual atmosphere in every inch of the earth to remind the government of God that is functioning everywhere and always. I was very much pleased to find the printed statement on the dollar note, which says, “In God, we trust”. On the currency notes, the familiar pictures of God should be printed, which remind the divine administration. The pictures of the heads of human government and other natural scenes should be avoided.

[Hawkins]

Truth is evidence-independent. Truth itself exists as a truth. Evidence are actually pieces of information allowing a human brain (or rather human belief system) to belief that if it is a truth of not.

Your brain hits a truth when what's inside your belief system matches what the truth itself is. Yet that 'match' is hardly measurable. That is, one can hardly 100% sure about if what's inside our brain actually matches what the truth itself is. That's why the Matrix advocate.

Science is abit special. Science is the discovery of natural rules. And natural rules can predict. They predict precisely for a human brain/belief system to reckon them as the truth.

Empirical evidence actually means something which can fool the brains/belief systems of a certain mass of humans.

Each human brain/belief system is unique. Thus something is evident to someone may not be evident enough to another.

God gives tailored evidence to those individuals who have faith in Him. Thus the theists' (at least some of them) belief is based on both faith and evidence. While the atheists' belief is based on the absence of evidence.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence - Einstein.

Now the atheists' belief is based a fallacy.

Moreover, God's existence (or not) has absolutely nothing to do with human behavior such as capitalism and religion fanatics. "Because religion fanatics exist such God must not exist" is just another fallacy the atheists tend to fall for.

[jobee]

[quote=dattaswami;408246]The logic of atheists is based on perception (Pratyaksha Pramana), which was propagated by the sage Charvaka. Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes. Infact in the logic (Tarka Sastra) all the means of knowledge are based on perception only. In the inference (Anumana) also, the fire on the hill is inferred by its smoke. But the relationship between the fire and smoke is perceived with the naked eyes only. Similarly other means of knowledge are also based on the perception only. Thus Charvaka forms the basic of the entire logic and without logic there is no knowledge. The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception. The divine miracles performed by the human form of Lord prove that there is a power above the logic. These miracles are seen by the naked eyes. The atheists must be allowed to prove whether the miracles are simply magic tricks. When they cannot prove, they must accept the existence of super power above the logic. If they do not accept this they are contradicting their own basis, which is the perception. The divine miracles are experienced by the devotees and the experience cannot be contradicted. If the experience is contradicted, the experience of the atheists is also contradicted. Therefore atheists must be open-minded and should not be conservative. If they are conservative they have no right to criticize the religious conservatism.

The theory of Vedas and Bhagavath Gita never contradicts the perception and therefore the logic of atheists becomes the basis of the spiritual knowledge. The Lord comes in human form and this human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Even the miracles performed by demons establish the existence of super power. Therefore to convince the atheists the miracles of the Lord are not necessary. When they are convinced about the existence of the Super power (Maya), the possessor of the Super Power, the Lord, coming in human form must be also accepted because the form is seen by the naked eyes. The salvation is breakage of the bonds in this world. Since the bonds of this world exist based on the perception, the salvation is also existing based on the perception. Since the family members and the money are perceived by the eyes, the bonds with them are also perceived. Thus the salvation (Moksha) must be accepted by the atheists. A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’.

Since the human form is perceived, Sayujya or Kaivalya is also perceived and must be accepted by the atheists. The Bliss is derived by the devotee from the divine knowledge of the human form of the Lord. Therefore the Bliss is also true according to atheists. Thus the goal, the means to please the Lord (Sadhana) and the fruit of Sadhana (Moksha and Kaivalya) are perceived and exist in this world itself. Veda says ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’, ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’ which mean that the Lord in human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Veda also says ‘Ihachet Avedeet’, which means that everything is true as seen in this world itself. This is called ‘Jeevanmukthi’, which means attaining the salvation while one is alive and not after death. The salvation after the death is not true because that has no basis of perception. Thus if the atheists are little bit patient and leave their aggressive nature of criticism, they are best fitted in the true spiritual knowledge of Vedas. In fact Swami Vidyaranya included the philosophy of Charvaka in his book as one of the logical philosophies (Darsanaas).[

/QUOTE]So the lord was an avatar.