Why respect religious belief?

[Scottish_Republican]

Andy, you're really not getting what I'm saying are you? I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what Dawkins says (I don't agree with all of it), but science has singularly failed in marketing itself to the public in recent years. You shouldn't underestimate the importance of this.

"Your subjective views of Dawkins are a personal matter for you."

Yes, they are subjective. And some of Dawkins' behaviour is just that too. If I, and many others, dislike Dawkins' manner when we agree with him, how the hell do you expect to win over folk who don't eh?

"Evolutionary biology doesn't need an ambassador with diplomatic skills"

Yes, it does!!!
Where do you think science gets its funding from?
How do you get people to study science fully at school, and take it up as a career?
How do you prevent stupid laws from being passed which inhibit the study of evolutionary biology?

I'm sorry to say, but with bad attitude like Dawkins' you potentially alienate the allies, financial, political and educational, that science needs.

Do you really think that research scientists pay for their own research? Maybe in the 19th century, but not any more.

If everyone in the business of scientific PR was like Dawkins, we'd soon have thousands of unemployed scientists, trying to run their labs on thin air, and no money.

Changing the subject slightly -

"I agree but it is very much the cornerstone of the evangelical ideology."

This is true. However, again, it is much more an American thing. I have certainly come across it here amongst evangelicals, but even amongst the Wee Free extremists, it doesn't come to the fore as much.

I think there is probably an historical reason for this. The USA has long been an ultra-capitalist society, and the American dream is a kind of utopian expression of this. This applies to a lot of the Christians there, so they tend to shy away from the political aspects of Christianity (which are often the more positive ones, IMHO), and go towards the fabulistic (Creation), and puritanical (OT style legalism and moralism). It's easier for them to handle "in the Beginning", than "blessed are the poor" because of their lifestyle.

"behind the scenes he was involved in everything from tax evasion to embezzlement and coercion. I'm not suggesting all creationist spokesmen are as unscrupulous as him but I do think most of them have a wider agenda that they will promote by any means possible given half a chance."

Aye, I know what you're saying. It is unfair to compare the genuine tin tabernacler (who believes) with the multimillionaire televangelist (who believed/s but has been soured).

I think the issue is power. When you say "God ordains this/that", you can use it for political and economic purposes. Politicians such as Hitler and Stalin have not been above using evolution (in a debased form) as an excuse for their activities, but you can't pin that on (most) school biology teachers in Scotland!!!

[ANDY-J3]

Scottish Republican,
The fact that Dawkins is a best selling author makes me doubt whether people are too concerned about his abrasive and confrontational approach and he communicates his ideas in a way that is interesting and thought provoking which is more than a lot of scientists can do. Science books are usually mind numbingly boring but at least I can read Dawkins. Perhaps my attitudes to creationism are shaped by the fact that I debate with these people on a daily basis- I have the impression that creationism has for many evangelicals become the main point of focus in promoting their wider religious agenda. It's an area where they can use emotive rhetoric to appeal to people's sentiment and respect for scripture and draw Christians into believing in their radical doctrines. The religious lobby in the US is a powerful voice in politics and you wonder if the Iraq war for example would have been so easy to sell to the American public if it weren't for the fact that the fundamentalists were such staunch supporters of it. You just have to look at a website like Answersingenesis to see that creationism is a tool that evangelicals use to advertise their wider religious agenda and that's why I think it has to be actively conftronted.

[Scottish_Republican]

I suspect that Dawkins' books are being read by the converted though Andy.

"Science books are usually mind numbingly boring but at least I can read Dawkins."

Often they are. I've read some good books on quantum physics and astronomy though. There's some reasonable newsagent magazines you can pick up on science too. They're not quite at journal level, but most (with a few exceptions) are pitched at the middle brow, and can be read by laypeople like ourselves.

"The religious lobby in the US is a powerful voice in politics"

It always has been, but you have to remember that there are historical reasons for this. Such as religious persecution in Europe.

The Thirteen Colonies contained the most progressive and theocratic elements of European society simultaneously. While we've tended to catch up on the political side, if not outstripped them, they've retained the pilgrim attitude.

Another reason perhaps, is the usage of television, which has made big money for some of these people. And isolation.

And another - curiously enough, is that in England, religion was so co-opted by the state that it hasn't been quite so destructive. However, the flipside to that is that you have the Church of England encouraging adulation of the monarchy.

"creationism is a tool that evangelicals use to advertise their wider religious agenda and that's why I think it has to be actively conftronted."

Well, it has been confronted, for decades. I notice one major thing - both sides totally misunderstand and misrepresent one another. Winning over the public and politicians is another thing. Politicians in America see money, that's why they're selling out over creationism. And threats of violence perhaps.

A lot of the misunderstanding is down to language. Both sides use the same words to mean radically different things. It's like a Mormon and an Anglican debating - a lot of the same terms come up, but with different meanings, e.g. a bishop is low down in Mormonism, and Jesus was a married man, and his dad (God the father) impregnated Mary in his body.

Science has not been very good at selling itself in recent years. I have a metal album by System of a Down (who are a good group, but occasionally stupid in their lyrics), but which has a song "Science has betrayed our mother earth". Scientific practice is tarnished with its involvement with the military, the government, and multinationals - people see its destructive side. Also, it has the added problem that it no longer has the perceived optimism it once had, so it's not offering the hope that many people need, unlike Christianity. People see science helping multinationals produce pollution, but don't realise that science also identified that pollution, and how to deal with it. People see Christianity's bloody historical record, but they also see a pie in the sky solution which offers them hope for their wretched situation. It also provides a social group/network for them.

[kathyv]

Originally Posted by CreepingJesus

People are being killed every day in the name of unprovable claims made by religion.

Religion is a murderous blight upon humanity based upon ignorance and superstition.

"Each to their own" implies that this is some kind of acceptable situation.

Right on all 3 counts CJ.

People are bing killed daily, and this is wrong. A religion that teaches this is wrong, and is not Faith. Many religions are based on superstition and ignorance, again, this is not Faith.

Each to their own may sound like a cop out stand but there is some validity in it that if you are secure in your Faith, you won't need to go out and force others to convert to it, this may be the biggest difference between Faith and religion. And you do have to decide for yourself about Faith, I can't make you do that, nor should I or any other Christian!

'In The Name of Religion' has been a battle cry all through history, not just with Christianity, every group thinks their particular God is on their side when really we are all God's children and shouldn't be on 'sides' to force and kill for a religion full of man made laws. So I guess you shouldn't respect 'religion', not those religious acts that seek to maim and destroy and force a belief upon others. And these acts do occur ion ALL religions. I am a Christian but there are actions done by professed fellow Christians that I despise. I don't despise the person who committed them, just the actions. I may lose respect for the person who committed them but not my Faith. I'll pick on poor Jerry Falwell again, I disrespect him for the stand he took against Blacks during the American Civil Rights movement, I disrespect his choice for bowing to American cultural politics of the time rather than following the teachings of His savior that taught the opposite of what Mr. F. was acting upon. Can you see the difference in my statement? Does it make sense? There is a saying, 'Love the Sinner, hate the sin'. . . that's basically the thinking behind what I have said.

And another thought on evo/creo. . . Viruses are a big point in favor of those who chose evolution. We know they change and become resilient to medications, if this change happens at the DNA level then it is evolution. Maybe Scientists need to determine whether early man was man at the DNA level and not ape? That may answer many issues, but I bet it won't end the politics!



"I think there is probably an historical reason for this. The USA has long been an ultra-capitalist society, and the American dream is a kind of Utopian expression of this. This applies to a lot of the Christians there, so they tend to shy away from the political aspects of Christianity (which are often the more positive ones, IMHO), and go towards the fabulistic (Creation), and puritanical (OT style legalism and moralism). It's easier for them to handle "in the Beginning", than "blessed are the poor" because of their lifestyle."

Boy, I think you really hit on something here! And believe it or not, many of us here in the States agree with you, unfortunately, the American Media portrays ALL Americans as fat cat greedy self centered evangelicals that are so narrow-minded that they can't see anyway but their own or care about anything else or anybody else and if you aren't for us you are against us. BUT WE ARE NOT ALL THAT WAY!

If I have something and you need it, you can have it. If I have been blessed with much then it is my honor to share willingly. If I have little and you have less, I will share, if you need it worse that I, it's yours. And I WILL NOT use it as a tax write off! How generous is it if I plan to get it back later? Not! We don't all have that kind of lifestyle! If I can't afford it, I don't get it, I don't have a credit card, I don't have massive debt, I live in an area where I can grow it and catch it myself so I don't have to spend my life shopping for it! I don't even particularly want a 'lifestyle', I want to live my live to the best of my abilities and within my means.

[southern]

Creeping Jesus-As for my statement each to their own...not that it is deemed correct for persecution of any kind, but in the US and UK freedom of choice...even in having faith in “fairy tales” or believing in evidentiary fact of evolution is a choice, but we as a whole should listen and respect others opinion. By not respecting others ideas, it would make you no better than the countries that persecute in the name of religion. As for evidence for creation...yes it does come down to faith. But I might see evidence of a creator when I look at anatomy or micro-biology, where as another will just see evidence of science. (going back to school...from business to medicine...so most of my time is spent in BIO books!!!)
I agree with Scottish Republican that the US has “retained the pilgrim attitude”...what can I say that’s the American way
..and that people in the power do use religion to benefit themselves...sad to say the least
...because of American’s isolation...geographically there can be a degree of intolerance of ideas...hopefully with leadership the US can give our people more of a world view, but many Americans truly don’t look past their own back yards (another issue in it’s self)

[Polwarth]

The USA has a 'degree of intolerance of ideas'?
BWAHHHAAAAAAAA

[southern]

well I just didn't want to bash on my own country too much....but what can I say...every country has their share...we just do things in a grand style that affect many....and only the craziest stuff makes the news