The Bible: capitalist or socialist?

[PRgirl]

Gypsum said this the only thing that makes sense!!

I believe in having as comfortable a lifestyle as possible. It's not easy to meditate on God's goodness on an empty stomach, thirsty mouth, diseased body and with no place to rest your head. I can't recall Jesus ever advocating poverty, illness, lack as the way forward. I've been without and would agree with him. There is no virtue in going without. You don't suddenly become enlightened as a result. [/b][/quote]

PRgirl: Yeah that is true. That is why so many unemployed people who have empty stomachs can't concentrate well or learn or be productive. Why are there SO MANY OF THEM? SO MANY people suffering deprivation. I don't think it is due to inferior genes, or God favors one group over another group of human beings. So I look for SYSTEMIC causes for the inequality instead of blaming the individuals living in the squalor and in the circumstances. I just disagree on the solution.

You Gypsum, think private property and capitalistic endeavors and conservative traditional values will solve the issue. I see it differently, anything that breeds two separate classes in conflict of interests will lead to someone in some part of the world going hungry through no real fault of their own. How can we be more spiritual if we keep perpetuating an unfair system that never addresses human basic needs for the vast majority of the world's peoples? I don't believe anyone has to go through this

An old post describing the Great Depression where there was sink or swim or literally live or die, as I type this I look at my hands, my father told me I have my grandfather's hands in only one way, you can see the blue veins through the skin, the grandfather I never met whose hands I resemble died from unspeakable poverty and deprivation, and it scarred my father, like it scars all the deprived people allover the world for NO GOOD REASON except human greed and worldly ambitions and lack of SHARING all the resources with all who really need it. And I don't believe the conservative line. The conservatives never did a damn thing for the poor of Latin America except rip them off and exploit their natural resources. If you disagree Gypsum do I care? No. You are who you are. And you will never be able to grasp the entire picture. You are focused on the anti-solution. That is my opinion, I am sure you will disagree. So what? Such is life on fora, people disagree.
(This was my father's life in Depression era Puerto Rico),

I don't know if you recall this (name of internet friend), but I did tell you how the Great Depression was experienced by my father. He was born in 1933 in Bayamon, Puerto Rico. He recalls it was a very pastoral and peaceful campo....with deep poverty. And I did mention to you since my grandparents were landless peasants (my paternal granny being the illegitimate issue of some rich coffee plantation owner's son who forced himself on my great grandmother while her father was picking coffee and could not supervise her), and they moved to the big city to look for better work. Only for my grandfather to come home empty handed with no money to buy food with. No parcelita to grow food on. And my father had bad stomach cramps due to malnutrition too. He would run after the sugar cane trains trying to get the stalks thrown out by the workers who sat on top of the big piles like the other poor children in El Fanguito. My grandfather Benito prohibited him from doing that because many children would get injured or killed by the train if they were small like my Dad was at the time. He caught him once disobeying him for the cane, and it was the only time my father recalls his father spanking him. For he and his older brothers stated he was a very gentle man in general, and a joker and quite a good hearted person. He died of tuberculosis at home. No money to pay for medical treatment. And my father never really got over that I think. He always recalled Benito with so much love. That Depression was a misery.


I ask myself why did he have to go through that? It was economics. Pure and simple. Not the hand of God hating on the poor. And Capitalists no matter how much you believe otherwise Gypsum are not making the world more just and better for everyone. No. It is still the old dog eat dog with Satan running the show.

[Gypsum_Fantastic]

Originally posted by PRgirl
So I look for SYSTEMIC causes for the inequality instead of blaming the individuals living in the squalor and in the circumstances.

Inequality being the inevitable consequence of liberty.

Your solution, as witnessed by the socialist nightmares of USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, etc, etc. is the complete equality of everyone via the complete impoverishment of everyone. Your solution is rubbish and has never worked.

Originally posted by PRgirl
You Gypsum, think private property and capitalistic endeavors and conservative traditional values will solve the issue.

Private property hasn't been tried in many of the world's poorest countries. I agree with the Peruvian economist Hernando De Soto who advocates property rights been assigned to the poor in developing countries - no matter how rundown the building. As he correctly observes: " It is the property that actually carries the value of capital around. In most of the third world you have homes that on average can range from anywhere between $1,500 and $70,000."

Part of the problem for the poor in the developing world is that they have no property rights even though they may live in a property - this means the state can just come along and bulldoze it as happened recently in Mugabe's Zimbabwe.

So, yes, to solve the issue, I advocate private property and ownership belonging to the people.

For 'capitalistic endeavours' read 'people working for themselves'. I cannot think of anyone, except the most miserable statist human being, who would seek to deny the right of an individual to work for his own living. It is utterly absurd to deny this.

Originally posted by PRgirl
I ask myself why did he have to go through that? It was economics. Pure and simple. Not the hand of God hating on the poor. And Capitalists no matter how much you believe otherwise Gypsum are not making the world more just and better for everyone. No. It is still the old dog eat dog with Satan running the show.

I'm afraid your view of the world is a miserable, dismal one with human beings being little more than 'automata inconvenienced with a soul', stripped of all aspiration and where physical deprivation is passed off as spiritual enlightenment. I'm afraid your message is not one that I recognise as the Christian one.

[PRgirl]

Gypsum in the usual way of lack of logic makes me laugh at lunchtime. He said:

"Inequality being the inevitable consequence of liberty."

PRgirl: Liberty for whom? And who has liberty when living in poverty without basics? Just how 'free' are you living on the edge of squalor and malnutrition (where are the opportunities and choices for a better life) NIL that is where the choices are. You know in Spanish there are two similarly spelled words related to liberty that have two different meanings Gypsum. And you are an advocate of the latter. The words are 'libertad' and the second word is 'libertinaje'. Liberty is the first meaning and 'libertine' is the second. I am an advocate of liberty that includes not letting people be without adequate housing, nutrition and medicication regardless if there is profit or no profit to it or not. Your 'libertinaje' doesn't do anything for anyone. And it certainly is not Christian, because your 'self centered comforts' do not represent Christian core principles. Even the one's defined previously by Andy J. Even a classic Christian knows that if he has more than his bethren he needs to share it. I don't think you want to share one thing with anyone. And resent the state apparatus that you live in which is a mixed economy with socialist elements like the UK for forcing you to atleast do your 'duty' by the state. LOL. You are a pick and choose lousy Christian. But, I must say the things you come up with are a lot of fun to read. Like this first line. It made me smile.





Your solution, as witnessed by the socialist nightmares of USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, etc, etc. is the complete equality of everyone via the complete impoverishment of everyone. Your solution is rubbish and has never worked.

PRgirl: Hmm, you think I represent China, North Korea, USSR etc? No. I represent the reality of my nation. Not the others. Why sidetrack this conversation with other nations histories Gypsum. They are not a success? How many nations can I pull out who are officially recognized as CAPITALIST economies who are far worse economically than the aforementioned ones? A whole lot is the answer Gypsum. A whole lot. I won't get into that. Because economics is not the theme of this thread. It is if the Bible is socialist or capitalist. And if Jesus Christ was a 'capitalist' or a 'socialist'. Which when analyzed is absurd. Since neither economic systems where developed in JC's historical period. But as we say, "alla tu". I got to chuckle again. But in raw terms, anything accomplished in groups with fairness and 'distribution' involved in which all must cooperate whether it is the Essenes, and Jews from biblical times or the modern economies of the first world. ALL had to integrate socialist elements over time into their systems or collapse into the good old, elite everything, majority nothing schemes and endless riots and problems and lack of stable anything. The social conditions dictate what happens. Not the other way around. If the system is in crisis and inefficient socialist elements have to be introduced. Such as FDR's plans in reaction to the worldwide Depression of the 1930's it is not about, what some individual thinks is necessary it is what is an agreed upon plan. Dictating by realities that are disfunctional and need to be rectified. Simple as that.

Originally posted by PRgirl
You Gypsum, think private property and capitalistic endeavors and conservative traditional values will solve the issue.

Private property hasn't been tried in many of the world's poorest countries. I agree with the Peruvian economist Hernando De Soto who advocates property rights been assigned to the poor in developing countries - no matter how rundown the building. As he correctly observes: " It is the property that actually carries the value of capital around. In most of the third world you have homes that on average can range from anywhere between $1,500 and $70,000."

PRgirl: Yes, it has. Lol. Private property for the banks who give those loans out and private crap for the corporations who buy land for x,y, z reasons. Who does economic dumping to control the resources and who buy up the other nations resources, land and investments in crisis to dictate terms to them. Have you analyzed third world debt GF? If you do, you see the direct correlation between the interest rates, the payments and the resources and labor in the debtor nations and why the lowest and much of the lower middle classes are losers in that scheme in the long run. And where does the scheme originate from except the world financial institutions whom all have ties to capitalistic concepts of private everything. Hmmm. I don't need to elaborate but, I think again. Let us stick to the theme. What is Christian? Sharing or hoarding? That is simple enough? Don't you think GP? I would say sharing is Christian, and hoarding is anti-Christian is that agreed? Or does that constitute a too distasteful reality for such as you think GP? Ay, caramba, I think GP is still worrying about the state taking his disposable income in the form of taxes away, and he won't be able to buy that extra luxury property he always wanted. Where is the Christian intent in all this? I don't see it.

Part of the problem for the poor in the developing world is that they have no property rights even though they may live in a property - this means the state can just come along and bulldoze it as happened recently in Mugabe's Zimbabwe.

PRgirl: That means that the usual suspects the banks who give out mortgage loans in the third world to workers with unstable economies wind up making some money. Lol. Oh GP, why don't we just stick to Christ who is he? I think if he is known as an enlightened Spiritual beacon for many cultures all over the world, would he really be as petty as you are being? No, he would not be. He would be more concerned with the CORE. Lifting all humans out of the vices that makes them suffer. Emphasizing the positive qualities in humanity and not the negative. That is a simpler conclusion than having to debate foolishness of pettiness as 'true' Christianity or not.

So, yes, to solve the issue, I advocate private property and ownership belonging to the people.

For 'capitalistic endeavours' read 'people working for themselves'. I cannot think of anyone, except the most miserable statist human being, who would seek to deny the right of an individual to work for his own living. It is utterly absurd to deny this.


PRgirl: I have some quickflash news for GP. People in the thrid world rarely rely on conventional salaried employment for an income. Too unstable. Many do what is called survival micro self employment. Whether it is selling pencils in the street or ice cream peddlers or rickshaw drivers. And if they stay around long enough they unionize. Lol. People have to work or starve. The question is does the work pay enough to live on and keep a roof over their heads? Yes or no? Or does the combination of high unemployment, third world banking systems, high debtor nation payments and etc. keep them from making any progress at all? Nope. Again let us stick to Christ and Biblical principles. Sharing or hoarding?

Originally posted by PRgirl
I ask myself why did he have to go through that? It was economics. Pure and simple. Not the hand of God hating on the poor. And Capitalists no matter how much you believe otherwise Gypsum are not making the world more just and better for everyone. No. It is still the old dog eat dog with Satan running the show.

I'm afraid your view of the world is a miserable, dismal one with human beings being little more than 'automata inconvenienced with a soul', stripped of all aspiration and where physical deprivation is passed off as spiritual enlightenment. I'm afraid your message is not one that I recognise as the Christian one. [/b][/quote]

PRgirl: I disagree, I think your version of inequality and lack of justice for the majority of the world's workers who also happen to be fellow Christians whether they be Roman Catholics or some other Christian sect, become just another cog in the wheel of the MACHINE that only thinks of making money and stupidly thinks it can serve two masters. The profit at any cost principle, and still be 'saved'. The only one who turns human beings into machines are those who value property rights over human rights. And accept inequality as inevitable. Why? Cuz they aspire to be the ones at the top of the pyramid and to hell with the ones who are the majority who are not the top of the pyramid folk. Gee, how Christian is that mentality? Not very. A bunch of selfish, self serving fake Christians is what they truly are. But, again GP, you sure do say some funny stuff. Lol. I hope we have many such 'debates'. It is fun. Very fun.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Gypsum_Fantastic
Well, is it?

Every morning on Radio Scotland I'm subjected to a succession of dreary folk, from all faiths, using the 'Thought For The Day' slot to bang home their tedious views on the G8 summit, globalisation, etc. All of them seem to assume that God, or Gods, is left-wing and a deffo socialist, if ever there was one.

But Jesus wasn't an employee of some state-owned bureaucracy. He was a self-employed businessman. So is the Bible pro-capitalist or pro-socialist?

Gypsum, read Rerum Novarum by Pope Leo XIII and Quadragesimo Anno by Pope Pius XI. They teach a social doctrine based entirely on the principles of Scripture and Christian philosophy. Here are the links:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/le...ovarum_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pi...o-anno_en.html

[PRgirl]

The Roman Catholics know there is some 'devilish' activities happening. Lol. Why does GP deny there is such? C'mon GP. The RC always has had elements of all kinds of 'radical' elements. Hmm, if Mother Teresa is maligned by you, I wonder just how united in "Christianity" are you? Not very is my conclusion. Work on sharing and not hoarding and that includes the heavy coffers of the RC church and the Protestant denominations who at least are not as closed as GP and try to serve only ONE master and not two.

An excerpt from the previous post. May I comment and say it is an interesting position put forth by the Church leadership. Who is a hierarchy and whom are traditional. But it is an RC version of reality. Not a protestant one. The Protestants in many ways are like DC described through example. Benny Hinn. Send your 'contribution'. When you think about it, all those 'pooled' funds for the neediest sounds like another version of socialism. Lol. This thread is highly interesting.

3. In any case we clearly see, and on this there is general agreement, that some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class: for the ancient workingmen's guilds were abolished in the last century, and no other protective organization took their place. Public institutions and the laws set aside the ancient religion. Hence, by degrees it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men. To this must be added that the hiring of labor and the conduct of trade are concentrated in the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke little better than that of slavery itself.


Mira, CARAMBA again!! Your average hiearchical highly conservative Archbishops, Cardinals and the like are more realistic than GP about the state of the poor in the world. Hmmm. I wonder what this means? The church through GUILT will make these 'usery' men stop being so sinful, and SHARE? Or will they bust a deal? And compromise? Anything to avoid the teeming masses from creating havoc? The problem is that the church must choose which version of Christ are they gonna follow the one in which they represent only the elite and the wealthy or the poor and the humble? They over history always choose to perpetuate themselves and if they serve the poor, they don't rely on the poor to fund them. Do they serve two masters too? I think that is the crux of the problema right there.

[Eleana]

Sorry I admit right away that I have not read through all of your discussion.


Last time I looked was the Bible two books, one dealing with before Christ, one with after Christ.

Written 300 after Christ.

Capitalism and Socialism are referring to economical and social concepts 1900 years later.

so what was the question?

[DistantCelt]

Wrong- capitalism and socialism arnt 19th century developments.
Both capitalism and socialism have existed in some form or another for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
We've developed it further in the last 200 years but we do that for everything.
European privateering was fundamentally capitalistic.
Chinese ming dynasty was fundamentally socialistic.