Scotland gave us some great protestants

[Scottish_Republican]

"The Orange Order is a massive part of this community, and it should always be respected as this...We as a band support the Orange Order the same way we support all the Loyal Orders and our entire community, But here in Scotland over the past 16 years or so a lot has been said ABOUT & WITHIN the Orange Order in Scotland on their stance against the Battle Honours and Colours of the Ulster Volunteer Force in their Parades, we in the S.O.U.F.B. genuinely Sympathize with our fellow Bandsmen who have been slandered from pillar to post for standing by their principles and refusing to drop those standards.

We as a band and members of the UVF Regimental Band Association also refuse to drop our colours for ANYONE, too many men died under those flags for us to simply give them up, we wont down cry any band who decides to drop their colours, we dont agree with it but what other bands do is up to them, iam sure those who have and those who will i suppose do again in the future, will have valid excuses (in their own minds) for doing so, but to us " we are the Sons of Ulster and we are proud to represent the Sons of Ulster every Son of Ulster who Died & Served under the Purple standard of the Ulster Volunteer Force".

http://www.noelkinnersoufb.co.uk/orangeorder.htm

I take it you don't consider the UVF to be a terror organisation then?

[ANDY-J2]

Originally posted by Scottish_Republican
"Since when was marching a crime?"

Or rephrased -
What's the point in walking through housing estates thumping drums and screaming abuse?


The point is that it's a traditional,accepted means of celebrating one's heritage-would the same rights and privileges be denied to a pipe band?.


"So is a few decades a hundred years?"

It is a length of time. And it is significant. No wonder they don't mention it.


I don't attach any significance to it but that's because I have sufficient knowledge of Irish history to be aware of the factionalism and petty jealousies which existed between groups who supposedly shared a common set of religious ideals.


"In any case your original point was that the Orange order are hypocrites apparently because of something which happened some 150 years ago which is hardly credible is it?"

It's very credible, since it's history swept under the carpet. They don't like admitting that the Orange Order barred "Dissenters" [sic], i.e. those who didn't accept the King of England as head of the church (which came about anyway partially when Henry VIII exchanged the Pope for himself).


I'm not aware that it's an issue the Orange order regards as being of any importance and having examined an outline of its history it doesn't even warrant a mention.

http://www.grandorange.org.uk/history/Early_Years.html




"I understand that but surely republics are founded upon democracy and freedom of expression?"

Freedom of expression shouldn't cover up for thuggery.


And it stands to reason that if Orange marches were characterised by thuggery and violence they would be banned.The fact that local authorities,almost without exception allow them to occur,is a testament to the fact that they are for the most part peaceful.








"In your personal opinion the Orange order is a body which encourages sectarian discord however in my opinion it is a force for good as indicated by the sources which I have cited previously."

And yet it regularly breaches the peace by deliberately marching through areas it sees as being RC,

Breach of the peace is unlawful and if Orange walks contravened any laws they wouldn't be permitted.





and its members have many well documented links with "Loyalist" terrorism.But it's not a few "bad apples", it's most of them. Try finding the Salvation Army's "few bad apples". You'll find one or two, such as the lad caught embezzling a couple of years back, but not dozens of links with paramilitary organisations (even if Moscow thinks they are).

You provided three links (one of which doesn't work).One deals with an individual who claimed to be a prominent Orangeman yet was apparently not even known to the Orange order.One alleged that three orange bands had attended a march in comemoration of an loyalist terrorist but of course proved nothing.I provided you with a number of 100 000 members in the Orange order UK wide.

http://www.orangehistoricalsociety.org/orange_faq.html


In the light of that how can you seriously claim that your evidence indicates that there are substantial links with terrorist organisations?A few alleged sympathisers is hardly a substantial proportion of 100 000 people is it?

[ANDY-J2]

Originally posted by Scottish_Republican
"The Orange Order is a massive part of this community, and it should always be respected as this...We as a band support the Orange Order the same way we support all the Loyal Orders and our entire community, But here in Scotland over the past 16 years or so a lot has been said ABOUT & WITHIN the Orange Order in Scotland on their stance against the Battle Honours and Colours of the Ulster Volunteer Force in their Parades, we in the S.O.U.F.B. genuinely Sympathize with our fellow Bandsmen who have been slandered from pillar to post for standing by their principles and refusing to drop those standards.


And this supports what I have stated.It acknowledges that the order have taken a "stance against the Battle Honours and Colours of the Ulster Volunteer Force in their Parades".Therefore clearly the organisation is making every effort to distance itself from terrorist groups.







We as a band and members of the UVF Regimental Band Association also refuse to drop our colours for ANYONE, too many men died under those flags for us to simply give them up, we wont down cry any band who decides to drop their colours, we dont agree with it but what other bands do is up to them, iam sure those who have and those who will i suppose do again in the future, will have valid excuses (in their own minds) for doing so, but to us " we are the Sons of Ulster and we are proud to represent the Sons of Ulster every Son of Ulster who Died & Served under the Purple standard of the Ulster Volunteer Force".

http://www.noelkinnersoufb.co.uk/orangeorder.htm

I take it you don't consider the UVF to be a terror organisation then?


The UVF is a terror organisation which is why this particular band is not permitted to march in Scotland alongside the Orange order.This individual has a personal viewpoint whiich is at odds with the views of the order.

[Scottish_Republican]

"The point is that it's a traditional,accepted means of celebrating one's heritage-would the same rights and privileges be denied to a pipe band?"

Most pipe bands don't march with "religious" agendas.

"I have sufficient knowledge of Irish history to be aware of the factionalism and petty jealousies which existed between groups who supposedly shared a common set of religious ideals."

Then you should also know that non-Anglican Protestants were second class citizens in Ireland for centuries.

"I'm not aware that it's an issue the Orange order regards as being of any importance "

Because Anglicans make up a minority of the membership, and it would be embarassing for them for this little piece of dirt to be more widely propagated. Most Orangemen don't know about it.

"And it stands to reason that if Orange marches were characterised by thuggery and violence they would be banned.The fact that local authorities,almost without exception allow them to occur,is a testament to the fact that they are for the most part peaceful."

Well, you've seen what happens in NI when they DON'T allow them. It's a form of territorial pissing, to put it bluntly.

"You provided three links (one of which doesn't work)."

I've provided more than three links. As they are from newspapers, including the ones that don't work, if you so wish, you can take a note of them, and look up the newspapers in a library.

"One alleged that three orange bands had attended a march in comemoration of an loyalist terrorist but of course proved nothing."

I've supplied an example of a band heavily involved with both the OO and the UVF.

"I provided you with a number of 100 000 members in the Orange order UK wide."

Presumably most of these will be in NI (a notable peaceful part of the world, by BOTH sides), followed by the south west of Scotland.

It's notable that in the areas where Protestants and Catholics co-exist, but there is no strong Orange presence e.g. Aberdeen, Inverness, the east Borders and Dundee (although they've tried) that the two populations tend to get on fine. On the other hand, places such as Glasgow and Monklands where religious bigotry is rampant, the OO is very strong. Coincidence? One feeds off the other.

[Scottish_Republican]

"The UVF is a terror organisation which is why this particular band is not permitted to march in Scotland alongside the Orange order.This individual has a personal viewpoint whiich is at odds with the views of the order."

He's one of MANY. The grass roots, as opposed to the PR unit.

Again, why don't the Salvos attract militant nutters and thugs by the dozen? Could it be that they actually try to be Christians and Protestants?

[ANDY-J2]

Originally posted by Scottish_Republican
"Most pipe bands don't march with "religious" agendas.

And since when did having a religious agenda debar anyone from exercising their democratic rights.




Then you should also know that non-Anglican Protestants were second class citizens in Ireland for centuries.

Because Anglicanism was the established religion and as in England anyone who didn't adhere to the established state religion suffered legal sanctions.



Because Anglicans make up a minority of the membership, and it would be embarassing for them for this little piece of dirt to be more widely propagated. Most Orangemen don't know about it.


You're trying to create an issue out of a non issue.Most Orangemen don't know about it because it is not a matter of any significance what occured for a period of a few decades over a century and a half ago.It has no bearing whatsoever on the Orange order in this day and age.


Well, you've seen what happens in NI when they DON'T allow them. It's a form of territorial pissing, to put it bluntly.


It might be perceived as that however I see it as wanting to uphold traditions which Orangemen have upheld for many decades.



I've provided more than three links. As they are from newspapers, including the ones that don't work, if you so wish, you can take a note of them, and look up the newspapers in a library.

And as I've stated the very little evidence you have provided fails to support your argument.It does not indicate that substantial links exist betwen Orangeism and Ulster terrorist organisations and it would be difficult for you to prove otherwise given the numbers of Orangemen throughout the UK.




I've supplied an example of a band heavily involved with both the OO and the UVF.

And you seem to have ignored the fact that as I have indicated the said band in not permitted to march alongside the Scottish Orange order in its official marches so if it isn't permitted to march how strong do you think those links are?





Presumably most of these will be in NI (a notable peaceful part of the world, by BOTH sides), followed by the south west of Scotland.


I have no idea.The source didn't provide a breakdown of areas where membership was most prominent.

It's notable that in the areas where Protestants and Catholics co-exist, but there is no strong Orange presence e.g. Aberdeen, Inverness, the east Borders and Dundee (although they've tried) that the two populations tend to get on fine. On the other hand, places such as Glasgow and Monklands where religious bigotry is rampant, the OO is very strong. Coincidence? One feeds off the other.


Obviously those areas where protestantism is strongest are those where presbyterianism has traditionally been the dominant religion,such as Lanarkshire and Ayrshire and it was encouraged by the influx of immigrants from Northern Ireland who tended to settle in the industrialised central belt.

[ANDY-J2]

Originally posted by Scottish_Republican
"The UVF is a terror organisation which is why this particular band is not permitted to march in Scotland alongside the Orange order.This individual has a personal viewpoint whiich is at odds with the views of the order."

He's one of MANY. The grass roots, as opposed to the PR unit.

Again in your personal opinion.You have a fondness for making statements which aren't justified by the evidence you provide.