Question

[Macilwen]

There is something I do not fully understand. Most of the Evolutionists I talk to believe in the Big Bang. From my understanding the Big Bang started from a tiny spec, correct? Well, where did that spec come from? It couldn't have just appeared, could it? That would be unscientific.

I was wondering (if there is not already a thread like this) if you guys wouldn't mind posting your arguements against Christianity and for Christianity here. Personally, I am a born again Christian.

Thanks!
Macilwen

[CreepingJesus]

You seem to be confusing biology with cosmology here.

For a layman's explanation of big bang theory go here

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...angredux.shtml

or (simpler) here

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/stra...l/bigbang.html

You say you're a "Born Again Christian"

I assume that would make you a biblical literalist too - correct me if I'm wrong.

If you are gullible enough to think that the book of Genesis is anything other that tribal creation mythology then I don't expect you to be able to get your head round big bang theory.

I generally leave that stuff to the likes of Hawking to explain - I'm a biologist not a physicist.

What I do know is that the idea of a creator god does not answer the fundamental question of the origin of the universe. It simply regresses it by one step.

If your logic requires a creator to be present, then it follows that that creator itself requires a creator, and so on, ad infinitum.

Don't let it burst your head - there is no god. It's just a made-up thing to explain what men can't explain yet.

[kazanova3]

Evolution of the Heavens

Having called modern concepts on the formation of the universe to mind, reference was made to the evolution that took place, starting with primary nebula though to the formation of galaxies, stars and (for the solar system) the appearance of planets beginning with the Sun at a certain stage of its evolution. Modern data lead us to believe that in the solar system, and more generally in the universe itself, this evolution is still continuing.

How can anybody who is aware of these ideas fail to make a comparison with certain statements found in the Qur'an in which the manifestations of divine Omnipotence arc referred to?

The Qur'an reminds us several times that:

. (God) subjected the sun and the moon: each one runs its course to an appointed term.

This sentence is to be found in Surah 13, verse 2; Surah 31, verse 29; Surah 35, verse 13 and Surah 39, verse 5.

In addition to this, the idea of a settled place is associated with the concept of a destination place in Surah 36, verse 38:

. The Sun runs its course to a settled place. This is the decree of the Almighty, the Full of Knowledge.

'Settled place' is the translation of the word mustaqarr and there can be no doubt that the idea of an exact place is attached to it.

How do these statements fare when compared with data established by modern science?

The Qur'an gives an end to the Sun for its evolution and a destination place. It also provides the Moon with a settled place. To understand the possible meanings of these statements, we must remember what modern knowledge has to say about the evolution of the star in general and the Sun in particular, and (by extension) the celestial bodies that automatically followed its movement though space, among them the Moon.

The Sun is a star that is roughly 4 billion years old, according to experts in astrophysics. It is possible to distinguish a stage in its evolution, as one can for all the stars. At present, the Sun is at an early stage, characterized by the transformation of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms. Theoretically, this present stage should last another 5 billion years according to calculations that allow a total of 10 billion years for the duration of the primary stage in a star of this kind. It has already been shown, in the case of these other stars, that this stage gives way to a second period characterized by the completion of the transformation of hydrogen into helium, with the resulting expansion of its external layers and the cooling of the Sun. In the final stage, its light is greatly diminished and density considerably increased; this is to be observed in the type of star known as a white dwarf'.

The above dates are only of interest in as far as they give a rough estimate of the time factor involved, what is worth remembering and is really the main point of the above, is the notion of an evolution. Modern data allow us to predict that, in a few billion years, the conditions prevailing in to solar system will not be the same as they are today. Like other stars whose transformations have been recorded until they reached their final stage, it is possible to predict an end to the Sun.

The second verse quoted above (Surah 36, verse 38) referred to the Sun running its course towards a place of its own.

Modern astronomy has been able to locate it exactly and bas even given it a name, the Solar Apex: the solar system is indeed evolving in space towards a point situated in the Constellation of Hercules (alpha lyrae) whose exact location is firmly established; it is moving a speed already ascertained at something in the region of 12 miles per second.

All these astronomical data deserve to be mentioned in relation to the two verses from the Qur'an, since it is possible to state that they appear to agree Perfectly with modern scientific data.

THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
The expansion of the universe is the most imposing discovery of modern science. Today it is a firmly established concept and the only debate centers around the way this is taking place

It was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is backed up by physics in the examination of the galactic spectrum; the regular movement towards the red section of their spectrum may by explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus the size of the universe is probably constantly increasing and this increase will become bigger the further away the galaxies are from us. The speeds at which these celestial bodies are moving may, in the course of this perpetual expansion, go from fractions of the speed of Light to speeds faster than this.

The following verse of the Qur'an (Surah 51, verse 47) where God is speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas:

. The heaven, We have built it with power, Verily We are expanding it.

'Heaven' is the translation of the word sama' and this is exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant.

'We are expanding it' is the translation of the p1ural present participle musi una of the verd ausa'a meaning 'to make wider, more spacious, to extend, to expand'.

Some translators who were unable to grasp the meaning of the latter provide translations that appear to me to be mistaken, e.g. "we give generously" (R. Blatchere). Others sense the meaning, but are afraid to commit themselves: Hamidullah in his translation of the Qur'an talks of the widening of the heavens and space, but he includes a question mark. Finally, there are those who arm themselves with authorized scientific opinion in their commentaries and give the meaning stated here. This is true in the case of the Muntakhab, a book of commentaries edited by the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, Cairo. It refers to the expansion of the universe in totally unambiguous terms.

http://www.it-is-truth.org

best regards

[Macilwen]

I admit I do not know the Big Bang theory very well...that's why I was asking! Thank you for the link, I am reading it right now....
And it still does not answer my question. So now we are clear about that. Where did the start of the Big Bang come from? How did it get there? If I "cannot wrap my brain around this" maybe someone can enlighten me?
And what about evolution with let's say...Lucy? Did anyone here know that only a few parts of that skeleton were actually from the same mammal? And the scientists said she could stand unpright, correct? Grizzly Bears can stand upright! That skeleton has curled toes and fingures. Does anyone here know what curled toes and fingures are used for? climbing and swinging on trees.
Now anyway, about the Bible and me being a born again Christian- The Old Testament profecises(okay, so I can't spell) about Jesus Christ. And for those of you who say the Old Testament and the New Testament could have been written at the saem time, think again. Several copies of the Old Testament were found as complete Bibles that were dated over 300 years older than the NEw Testament.
-Macilwen

[CreepingJesus]

And what about evolution with let's say...Lucy? Did anyone here know that only a few parts of that skeleton were actually from the same mammal? And the scientists said she could stand unpright, correct? Grizzly Bears can stand upright! That skeleton has curled toes and fingures. Does anyone here know what curled toes and fingures are used for? climbing and swinging on trees.

And you conclude what from this?

Have a read at this.....

http://www.geocities.com/palaeoanthr...afarensis.html

Originally posted by kazanova3

The speeds at which these celestial bodies are moving may, in the course of this perpetual expansion, go from fractions of the speed of Light to speeds faster than this.

When you say "speeds faster than this" do you mean faster than "fractions of the speed of Light" or do you mean faster than the speed of light?

Originally posted by Macilwen
The Old Testament profecises(okay, so I can't spell) about Jesus Christ.

Imagine you're a Jew born about 2000 years ago and you want your new religious sect to have authority and legitimacy. As a Jew you have been educated in the Torah. Wouldn't you write your story in such a way as to derive authority from the Torah?

What I'm saying is it's hardly surprising that the New Testament should go out of its way to confirm certain prophesies in the Old Testament as the authors of the N.T. would have been well versed in the O.T. and their target audience was other people who knew the O.T. already. Perhaps this is why, even today, Christians include the Torah (O.T.) in their Bible. Perhaps they think this ancient Jewish text lends extra authority to their own.