Question

[DevineHerring]

All, especialy FNB, please accept my apologies for being so coarse. ...a moment of weakness.
I shan't call anyone names again. I probably don't have the patience, time or energy for extensive discourse here in any case. I do enjoy reading some of the discussion however, and just may, politely, pipe in on occasion.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by ANDY-J2
So did the Jews of the late Bronze Age have a greater insight into the nature of this deity than any other people?

There was nothing overly special about them. The Bible records that they had a great propensity towards sin, apostacy, and faithlessness. However, God picked prophets from among them and spoke to them, adopted them into His family, legislated for them, and judged them. It was not that they were extraordinarily inshightful, but that God acted in their history in an extraordinary way.

Equally their purpose is open to question-perhaps rather than divinely inspired scripture much of the bible is no more than propoganda?

This is the opinion of many scholars, which opinion I oppose, of course. Perhaps the best argument against this position is to note that the Old Testament is quite unflattering in its portrayal of the Jewish people. If it were Jewish propaganda one would not expect to see verses such as Malachi 1:10-12, wherein God declares that He will no longer accept the sacrifices of the Jews, and that he will instead establish a pure sacrifice that will be offered by Gentiles all over the earth (the mass).

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Neil_Caple
Justice must surely be fair and consistent to be considered just, don't you think? Explain why a just God would kill 40,000 Iranians in an earthquake as punishment, but not bother to sort out a wee lightning bolt for Osama Bin Laden. How can 6 million European Jews be exterminated, but Adolph Hitler be allowed to escape man's retribution by shooting himself? How can hundreds of thousands of Rwandans be butchered and yet Idi Amin gets to die of old age in a Saudi hospital?

First off, remember I didn't say that the 40,000 Iranians were necessarily killed as punishment. I simply offered a (very incomplete) list of possible reasons.

Second, the eternal punishment matters far more than the temporal punishment. There are varying degrees of punishment in hell, so even if Hitler or Idi Amin got to die a painless death they would spend an eternity in torment, as opposed to a regular Iranian guy who, even if he died a more painful death, might spend eternity with nothing more than a paper cut.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Neil_Caple
Most Christian sects have a concept of free will. Most Christian sects have some mechanism by which an individual may gain access to Heaven, either by some sort of repentance or by accepting Jesus as a saviour. Say your God decided to smite a bunch of sinners with an earthquake by way of punishment, doesn't this act remove their free will?

It is Catholic teaching that God will give everyone sufficient opportunity that they may be saved. Whether He gives any given person 20 years of such opportunity or 80 would be entirely up to Him. God may be just, be He doesn't have to be fair (just =rendering to people according to their merits/demerits, fair =rendering to different people an equality of gratuitous, unmerited gifts).

What if some of those sinners would have freely chosen to repent, or be saved, etc. at some later stage if they'd lived their full natural lifespan but God smote them before they got the chance, isn't He breaking His own rules?

God would have forseen this contingency (one of the sinners would later repent if God gave him a few more years) and taken it into account when He made His decision. Perhaps some other factor outweighed the importance of this bit of information (e.g. whereas one of the sinners would have later repented if God had refrained from smiting, 20 sinners will repent when they see the smiting being done).

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by DevineHerring
I should think that you should look deep into your psyche and find the true source of you “faith”.

Good advice. Doing so may help me realize that my faith is not my own doing, but rather is an unmerited, supernatural gift. It will help me move closer to true humility. Thank you.

Is it sourced in fear, hubris, a will to dominate in your chosen field, or is it just that you just can’t stand to be wrong and having chosen the answer to this absurd argument you started with yourself that in trying to convince others you hope to finally convince for yourself?

I am quite convinced for myself, thank you. But debating with others has helped to deepen my faith, if that is what you are asking.

My take is you just love the fight… you seem to bright to really buy into your arguments and if you do well…. I don’t know what to say…. Find a shrink I guess….

I can assure you that I take no special relish in argument.

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
God may be just, be He doesn't have to be fair (just =rendering to people according to their merits/demerits, fair =rendering to different people an equality of gratuitous, unmerited gifts).

I think we are going to have to come to some sort of agreement on terms here. Webster's online dictionary defines just as

Main Entry: 2just
Pronunciation: 'j&st
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French juste, from Latin justus, from jus right, law; akin to Sanskrit yos welfare
1 a : having a basis in or conforming to fact or reason : REASONABLE b archaic : faithful to an original c : conforming to a standard of correctness : PROPER
2 a (1) : acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good : RIGHTEOUS (2) : being what is merited : DESERVED b : legally correct : LAWFUL
synonym see FAIR, UPRIGHT

And fair is defined as

Main Entry: 1fair
Pronunciation: 'far, 'fer
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English fager, fair, from Old English fæger; akin to Old High German fagar beautiful...
6 a : marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism b (1) : conforming with the established rules : ALLOWED (2) : consonant with merit or importance : DUE c : open to legitimate pursuit, attack, or ridicule ...
- fair·ness noun
synonyms FAIR, JUST, EQUITABLE, IMPARTIAL, UNBIASED, DISPASSIONATE, OBJECTIVE mean free from favor toward either or any side. FAIR implies an elimination of one's own feelings, prejudices, and desires so as to achieve a proper balance of conflicting interests . JUST implies an exact following of a standard of what is right and proper . EQUITABLE implies a less rigorous standard than JUST and usually suggests equal treatment of all concerned . IMPARTIAL stresses an absence of favor or prejudice . UNBIASED implies even more strongly an absence of all prejudice . DISPASSIONATE suggests freedom from the influence of strong feeling and often implies cool or even cold judgment . OBJECTIVE stresses a tendency to view events or persons as apart from oneself and one's own interest or feelings .

While we're at it, you have previously indicated that the commonly held meanings of purification and charity were not the meanings you implied when you used these words. Perhaps you should give us the definitions you are using.

[Artoo]

Yet another thread hi-jacked by Feartie! Angels dancing on the head of a pin!

The original post was about the Big Bang - what was there before it? The physicists' answer is that there was no 'before' in any meaningful sense. Time started in the same instant that space started. However that's not very satisfactory to a human mind fed by our sensory perceptions. Better to accept that there are some things that we simply can't conceive of; infinity and oblivion spring to mind, four-dimensional spaces may be less obvious. What's it like after death? What was it like before birth? Attempting to come to terms with these questions is one of the reasons we invent gods.