Question

[CreepingJesus]

Also, one of the necessary conditions for perfection is, of course, justice. Thus, any perfect being must be just, or else he wouldn't be perfect. And justice, in essence, is the desire to render to people what is their due; rewards to those who do good, and punishments to those who work iniquity (Romans 2:5-11). The term we give to the desire to render punishment is wrath, therefore the ability to be provoked to wrath is an essential component of perfection.

Just while I've got the url in my buffer....

http://www.iiees.ac.ir/English/Bam_report_english.html

Did your "just" being cause the 40,000 innocent deaths in the Bam earthquake, or simply fail to prevent it?

In any event, assuming the all powerful nature of your god, it would have been a choice made by a being with the wherewithall to make that choice

What did the good folk of Bam do to offend the "just" god?

Was it because they were Muslims?

Was there a bad guy or two living there so everybody had to suffer?

Your god can supposedly make precision strikes to save lives and effect wondrous cures, your website's full of links to these party tricks.

Is that his best shot?

Is this yet another "where's all the wooden legs at Lourdes?" demonstration of the limited abilities of the supposedly all-powerful?

[Edited by CreepingJesus on 5th April 2004 at 14:07]

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
You are assuming that perfection precludes personality and emotions. I simply do not see why this must be so. In fact, I believe the exact opposite to be true.

I merely expect perfection to lack imperfections. You seem to demand imperfections.

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
Also, one of the necessary conditions for perfection is, of course, justice. Thus, any perfect being must be just, or else he wouldn't be perfect. And justice, in essence, is the desire to render to people what is their due; rewards to those who do good, and punishments to those who work iniquity (Romans 2:5-11). The term we give to the desire to render punishment is wrath, therefore the ability to be provoked to wrath is an essential component of perfection.

My dictionary defines wrath as
n. 1.angry, violent, or stern indignation. 2. divine vengeance or retribution. 3. Arch. a fit of anger or an act resulting from anger.
Nothing about justice there. Any rational person will be able to tell you that acting out of anger bears little resemblance to justice. Anger leads to mobs and lynchings. Anger leads to lashing out, taking the law into your own hands. Even if you accept that your God delivers justice through this wrath, you still have to explain how a perfect being can be provoked into becoming angry in the first place. Doesn't He see it coming?

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan

I suppose I'll let God answer this one for Himself.

"Dost thou not know, dear daughter, that all the sufferings, which the soul endures, or can endure, in this life, are insufficient to punish one smallest fault, because the offence done to Me, who am the Infinite Good, calls for an infinite satisfaction? etc.

Your God seems very vain and arbitrary. Hardly perfect traits.

[Artoo]

[quote]Originally posted by ANDY-J2
[b]

Originally posted by Macilwen
Oh yeah, I forgot to reply about the Old Testament-sorry.


Recently scientists uncovered (okay, I'm no Biblical scholar and my mind has gone blank! Ah!) the old city that God told (I can't believe this! I can't even remember the guy's name! Was is David? Gosh, I am so brain dead right now) one of his followers to walk around the city and blow horns and then the walls would fall down and they could go into the city. Most everyone knows the story. So anyway, scientists uncovered the city and found the walls crumbled down low enough to walk over and proof that there had been an invasion,.

For a summary of the historical evidence, see:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...s/series.shtml

The programmes went out on the Discovery channel in the US and on BBC2 in the UK.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by CreepingJesus
Did your "just" being cause the 40,000 innocent deaths in the Bam earthquake, or simply fail to prevent it?

In any event, assuming the all powerful nature of your god, it would have been a choice made by a being with the wherewithall to make that choice

What did the good folk of Bam do to offend the "just" god?

I have no idea. There are any number of reasons why He could have caused this disaster. I cannot say for certain which one. All I can do is list all possible reasons why God allows evil to happen and say that it was one of them. A more detailed work on this subject is forthcoming on my website, but for now:

punishment
free will
purification
creating opportunities for the exercise of charity
etc.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Neil_Caple
I merely expect perfection to lack imperfections. You seem to demand imperfections.

No, I simply deny that the qualities you listed are imperfections.

My dictionary defines wrath as
n. 1.angry, violent, or stern indignation. 2. divine vengeance or retribution. 3. Arch. a fit of anger or an act resulting from anger.
Nothing about justice there.

Retribution is an act of justice, namely, giving someone what is their due.

Even if you accept that your God delivers justice through this wrath, you still have to explain how a perfect being can be provoked into becoming angry in the first place. Doesn't He see it coming?

Of course He does.

Your God seems very vain and arbitrary.

How so?

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by CreepingJesus
Easy! They attribute the "perfect" being with whatever characteristic suits the argument at the time.

They invented the being so it can be anything they like. As long as some high ranking theologian pronounces the characteristic then it's definitely how the god thinks, because the church says so.

Not quite. Our picture of God is bound by the descriptions of Him found in a book written by Jews between 2,000 and 3,500 years ago. We can't just invent characteristics.

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan

I have no idea. There are any number of reasons why He could have caused this disaster. I cannot say for certain which one. All I can do is list all possible reasons why God allows evil to happen and say that it was one of them. A more detailed work on this subject is forthcoming on my website, but for now:

punishment
free will
purification
creating opportunities for the exercise of charity
etc.

Were all 40,000 being punished? What for? What about the World Trade Center, was that punishment?

Free will??? How is being killed by an earthquake an exercise of free will?

Purification? You'd better explain that one as I don't think 40,000 rotting corpses would do much for the water supply!

The one about charity is just sick. If you believe your God would kill 40,000 people in Iraq to create the opportunity for you to feel good about yourself as to drop a few coins in a collection tin then you and your God deserve each other. What sort of evil monster would do such a thing???

Maybe your God suffers from Munchausen's Syndrome by proxy. That might explain things.