Question

[CreepingJesus]

Evolution of the Heavens......etc

In short, the description of sunrise and sunset in your holy book doesn't contradict what actually happens.

The sun rises, the sun sets. This as i am sure you are aware is because the earth rotates.

I think the writers who invented the stories in the quran would have been aware of this without some imaginary being having to explain it to them.

No gods involved.

No proof of gods being involved.

Without even getting into the science or misinterpretation of the science involved, your attempt to present Quranic verses as proof of some divine presence is a post hoc fallacy. A logical falsehood.

A coincidence is proof of nothing.

None of the Islamic "proofs" of god are anything more than easily dismissed post hoc fallacies.

[CreepingJesus]

Now anyway, about the Bible and me being a born again Christian- The Old Testament profecises(okay, so I can't spell) about Jesus Christ. And for those of you who say the Old Testament and the New Testament could have been written at the saem time, think again. Several copies of the Old Testament were found as complete Bibles that were dated over 300 years older than the NEw Testament.

Neil's quite right.

The gospel writers bent reality many times with unsubstantiable nonsense about miracles and resurrections in order to give their superhero more mass appeal.

Fitting the story to prophecy gave it more oomph.

The old testament doesn't prophesy Jesus. The Jesus character as portrayed in your holy book is made to fit the prophecy.

Ask yourself "What is more likely - that these miraculous events actually happened, or that it was a made-up story?"

Given that dead people don't get up and walk about I know hwere my money is.

(Sorry for repeating myself folks but there's one born every minute as they say.)

[Macilwen]

"Ask yourself "What is more likely - that these miraculous events actually happened, or that it was a made-up story?""

I did ask myself that...and I chose the first one.
I am very sorry you take me as an ignorant Christian.
I do commend you for doing your research, but I like to do mine too.

"In addition to the fossils, a 30-yard-long humanlike footprint trail of three bipedal individuals was unearthed, which had been made (presumably by Laetoli hominines) some 3.6 million years ago in a newly deposited layer of volcanic ash. The trail provides one of the more haunting relics of human prehistory, recording a few moments in the lives of three individuals, one of whom stopped briefly, turned to look eastward (possibly at the still-erupting distant volcano), and then continued onward."
Read the last sentence: How is that haunting?
Anyway, since you seem to know so much about "the truth", maybe you can enlighten a poor stupid Christian like me about the missing link?

[Macilwen]

Oh yeah, I forgot to reply about the Old Testament-sorry.

So your arguement is that people stretched the truth in order to fullfill the prophecies, correct?

Well if God never existed (and therefore Jesus would not be His Son) the how do you explain this:
Recently scientists uncovered (okay, I'm no Biblical scholar and my mind has gone blank! Ah!) the old city that God told (I can't believe this! I can't even remember the guy's name! Was is David? Gosh, I am so brain dead right now) one of his followers to walk around the city and blow horns and then the walls would fall down and they could go into the city. Most everyone knows the story. So anyway, scientists uncovered the city and found the walls crumbled down low enough to walk over and proof that there had been an invasion, but that is only part of it. In the Bible God told them not to raid the city-to not take anything. I don't know if any of you are familiar with that time, but grain was extrememly valuable. Archaeologists found a barrel of grain in every house. They were baffled because they knew the city had been in invaded, but the invaders didn't take a single thing! There were still beautiful pots and furniture, and clothing.

[ANDY-J2]

No one at present can say with certainty that the universe had a starting point because when scientists look back to the "beginning" of the universe they encounter what is known as "Planck time" where sizes are so small that quantum events take on a special significance and until we have a theory which combines relativity with quantum mechanics-i.e. a theory of quantum gravity-we cannot be certain that the universe had a starting point,which seems a difficult concept to grasp given that we tend to think in terms of everything having a beginning and an end.I don't have any arguments against Christianity-only those doctrines of it which are fundamentally unenlightened and of questionable value.For example the doctrines of original sin and vicarious atonement.What does the doctrine of original sin do except encourage feelings of guilt and inadequacy where none should exist?How can it be right to threaten sinners with the prospect of eternal damnation at the hands of a vengeful deity simply for failing to adhere to the dogmas and formularies of Christianity?My attitude to religion is anything which does good is good.Therefore those aspects of Christianity which people find spiritually uplifting or comforting in times of hardship are beneficial.However the meaningless dogmas and superstitious junk that is fundamental to Christianity has no place in the modern world and should be discarded.Ultimately beliefs are only of importance inasmuchas they compel believers to live a moral and decent life-anything which does not encourage that is meaningless junk,and that is precisely how I would describe a great deal of Christianity.

[Macilwen]

"No one at present can say with certainty that the universe had a starting point because when scientists look back to the "beginning" of the universe they encounter what is known as "Planck time" where sizes are so small that quantum events take on a special significance and until we have a theory which combines relativity with quantum mechanics-i.e. a theory of quantum gravity-we cannot be certain that the universe had a starting point,which seems a difficult concept to grasp given that we tend to think in terms of everything having a beginning and an end.I don't have any arguments against Christianity-only those doctrines of it which are fundamentally unenlightened and of questionable value.For example the doctrines of original sin and vicarious atonement.What does the doctrine of original sin do except encourage feelings of guilt and inadequacy where none should exist?How can it be right to threaten sinners with the prospect of eternal damnation at the hands of a vengeful deity simply for failing to adhere to the dogmas and formularies of Christianity?My attitude to religion is anything which does good is good.Therefore those aspects of Christianity which people find spiritually uplifting or comforting in times of hardship are beneficial.However the meaningless dogmas and superstitious junk that is fundamental to Christianity has no place in the modern world and should be discarded.Ultimately beliefs are only of importance inasmuchas they compel believers to live a moral and decent life-anything which does not encourage that is meaningless junk,and that is precisely how I would describe a great deal of Christianity."

Yes, I have known of people that threaten "sinners" before. And to be honest, it's stupid to call them "sinners" because we're all sinners. Anyway, I don't believe this is a good way to witness.
I'm sorry you think Christianity should be discarded.

Now I have a link for you guys: http://www.wasdarwinright.com/Biblicalfactorfiction.asp

At first it sounded like you were witnessing Christianity to me lol. You see, God has no beginning and no end. How can someone so easily believe in a universe with no beginning and no end, but not God? Why is it so much easier for people to believe it was just "there" instead that it was made?

Now, I will be gone on a Mexico Missions trip until next Sat. I just want you guys to know, just because I don't reply for a week, does not mean I have backed down. See you then,
Macilwen for Christ

[ANDY-J2]

Originally posted by Macilwen
Oh yeah, I forgot to reply about the Old Testament-sorry.

So your arguement is that people stretched the truth in order to fullfill the prophecies, correct?

Well if God never existed (and therefore Jesus would not be His Son) the how do you explain this:
Recently scientists uncovered (okay, I'm no Biblical scholar and my mind has gone blank! Ah!) the old city that God told (I can't believe this! I can't even remember the guy's name! Was is David? Gosh, I am so brain dead right now) one of his followers to walk around the city and blow horns and then the walls would fall down and they could go into the city. Most everyone knows the story. So anyway, scientists uncovered the city and found the walls crumbled down low enough to walk over and proof that there had been an invasion, but that is only part of it. In the Bible God told them not to raid the city-to not take anything. I don't know if any of you are familiar with that time, but grain was extrememly valuable. Archaeologists found a barrel of grain in every house. They were baffled because they knew the city had been in invaded, but the invaders didn't take a single thing! There were still beautiful pots and furniture, and clothing.

Many bible stories have some basis in historical events.For example we know that a flood occured within the area of the fertile crescent during the Bronze Age because we have archaeological evidence to confirm it and we also have contemporary sources such as the epic of Gilgamesh which confirm that the biblical flood story was based on a real event.We know also howerver that the flood was not universal because there is insufficient water on the planet to cover the entire land surface.we also know from archaeological digs that the walls of Jericho did indeed collapse several times-due to seismic activity-yet this is related in the bible as being the work of God and the trumpets of the Israelites.It is clear that the writers of biblical texts took real events and embellished them and added to them in order to give their illiterate and uneducated readership explanations for "miraculous" events.There are any number of logical natural explanations which could account for the undisturbed barrels of grain-divine intervention is not something which needs to be considered-except of course by those who want to believe that there is a God who shapes mankind's destiny.