Cont'd: Sins & Forgiveness

[khaledx76]

Niquie, I'm neither a deist nor American and you'd figure that out from my other posts here...And you'd only have the right to close the thread if my post contained any disrespect to any other group, otherwise you'd be abusing the powers given to you


If anyone has a comment on the previous thread: Sins and Forgiveness from an Islamic Prospective, you can post it here....

[CreepingJesus]

If anyone has a comment on the previous thread: Sins and Forgiveness from an Islamic Prospective, you can post it here....

Aye, that was a nice wee list of sins.

I notice you don't mention sex with children there.

Would you be prepared to condemn sexual relations with children as a sin?

Specifically with nine year-old girls?

And if not why not?

You're welcome to dispense with any tirade about my ignorance of Islam, it won't do any good.

Just answer my question (with respect of course).

BTW - Just for the sake of education - as a believer in a god you are, in fact a deist.

[CreepingJesus]

I did check out Sweden.com

If the mod's are right and "Khaled"'s been starting fights with himself under different names - this could turn out quite funny.

Everybody else just be sure you're who you think you are.

[khaledx76]

1- It was marriage, not just one of those relations you are used to.

2- She was the daughter of his best companion, Abu Bakr; so this marriage carried a social and an intimate relation with the whole family as well.

3- In these days, even in the Christian world and other societies, marriage from young (yet adult) girls wasn't strange. Someone has already proposed to her before the prophet PBUH: not socially abnormal.

4- Girls hit puberty at an early age in hot countries.

5- The pagans of that era wouldn't have left a chance to demoralize the prophet PBUH and to corrupt his image; However, they never considered this marriage to be a chance.

6- Her bieng at such a young age, she learnt and memorized a lot from the Prophet PBUH during his life; then she became a major religious source for the nation and companions of the prophet used to refer to her in many religious and political issues:

did that happen in any other society of that time or until the recent century that women's words are to be taken for doctorines?

7- She was the only lady that the prophet PBUH married and who didn't have a marital relationship before that: i.e. the only virgin wife of his...


More analysis here (I assume you know how to read):

"As regard your question, we’d like to make it clear in the very beginning that Prophet’s marriage to `Aisha, the Mother of the Faithful, has always been a subject of attack and criticism by the enemies of Islam. First of all, we want to clarify to people who view this marriage as some sort of brutal act and child abuse that they should try to understand the main purpose of this marriage and the condition of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, before the marriage.



As for the purpose of this marriage, it was purely for sociopolitical reason. The Prophet’s main concern was the future of Islam. He was interested in strengthening the Muslims by all bonds. This also explains the reason why he married the daughter of `Umar, his Second Successor. It was by his marriage to Juwayriyyah that he gained the support for Islam of the whole clan of Bani Al-Mustaliq and their allied tribes. It was through his marriage to Safiyyah that he neutralized a great section of the hostile Jews of Arabia. By accepting Mariya, the Copt from Egypt, as his wife, he formed a political alliance with a king of great magnitude. So his marriage to `Aisha could never be of anything save cementing his relation with Abu Bakr, `Aisha’s father.



As for the Prophet’s condition before this marriage, it clearly explained what we’ve said that it was a purely sublime aim and purpose that motivated him to marry `Aisha. That’s why the marriage was not consummated until sometime after the emigration to Madinah, when she had reached maturity. The motives of this marriage can be understood to be anything except passion and physical attraction. However, he lived with her, in addition to Sawdah, for five to six years, when he was 56 years of age, without taking any other wife.



One important point we have to clarify here is that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, when proposing to `Aisha, was not the first suitor, for, according to many historians, Jubair ibn Mut`am proposed to her before the Prophet, peace and blessings for him. This gives an indication that `Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, was mature enough for marriage at that age.



Giving more details on this issue, Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, deputy chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, states the following:



Firstly, Prophet’s proposal to `Aisha came through a suggestion made by Khawalh bint Hakim as a sign of strengthening the relation with his Companion Abu Bakr and confirming his love for him.



Secondly, the fact that `Aisha, before the Prophet proposed to her, was being pursued by Jubair ibn Mut`am, indicates that she was mature enough for marriage, according to the prevailing tradition at that time, if not, the Quraish people, who would never waste any chance to insult the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, would have found this marriage as a golden opportunity to pour on him rain of insults. Rather they found nothing wrong in this engagement, and they received the news of the Prophet’s proposal for `Aisha as something usual, and even, expected.



`Aisha was not the first case, for many girls married at her same age to men who were at their fathers’ age. Hala, the cousin of Amina bint Wahb was married to Abdul-Muttalib on the same day his son `Abdullah married Aminah bint Wahb who was at Hala’s same age. Also, the Companion `Umar ibn Al-Khattab married the daughter of Ali ibn Abi Talib, may Allah honor his face, while he was at her grandpa’s age.



After the passage of many centuries, we find now some Orientalists who try to strike a comparison between the conditions of our present time and what was existing 1400 years ago. They are trying to apply the criterions of the Western society to that society that existed in the Arabian Peninsula very long ago.



It should be noted that in the hot regions, it’s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age. Thus the case is totally different from that which does exist in the cold regions where a girl does not attain puberty before 21 (Note: Physicians maintain that the age of puberty in the cold regions normally ranges from 9 to 16). At all rates, it should be stressed that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, on marrying `Aisha, never aimed at fulfilling a lust or satisfying a desire; rather, his aim was to strengthen his relation with the most beloved Companion of his.



Had it been true that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, aimed at fulfilling a lust or satisfying a desire, he would have done this while still in his youth when he was still free from the responsibilities of delivering Allah’s call. At his early age, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, accepted to marry Khadija, may Allah be pleased with her, who was 15 years older than him. He also never married a new wife until after her death. Even after her passing away, his new wife Sawdah bint Zam`ah was an old-aged widow who possessed no particular appealing qualities. This adds to our certainty that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, had many great lofty aims behind his marriages. Also, when Khawlah bint Hakim suggested to him to marry`Aisha, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, thought thoroughly whether to accept or to refuse. He took into consideration his relation with Abu Bakr.



When `Aisha reached the Prophet’s house, Sawdah gave her the first place and took care of her till her death.. Afterwards, `Aisha remained a faithful wife to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him; her 10 years of marriage were of the life of a fully dedicated disciple, trainee and scholarly student in the noble Prophetic school. She was the source of knowledge for almost every Companion. She was of the main sources for revealing knowledge and information of the private life of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. She was a big celebrity in politics and the best example of generosity.



The Prophet’s love for `Aisha was a sign of his love for her father. On being asked about the dearest person to his heart, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, mentioned `Aisha. Then, on being asked about the dearest man to him and he, peace and blessings be upon him, mentioned her father, Abu Bakr.

[Edited by khaledx76 on 28th February 2004 at 07:35]

[khaledx76]

I've taken a one-week "Persuation Engieering" course, which is part of the Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP).

I've found that different people are to be persuaded in too many different ways: some by convincing, some by warning, some by alluring to the greater good, and some by logical approach....i.e. different people have different ways to persuade, as you'd know. (Those persuation techniques could be used for both good and evil purposes: it'a all about intention).

I practice Judo, and when I was about to start coaching youngsters, my coach told me that different Judokas are to be approached in different ways so as to motivate them depending on their personalities, and he was absolutely right!

Even the holy Qur'an, which is revealed by the one who knows about everything that he created and knows our ins and outs used this method of different approaches: wisdom, promising heaven, warning from hell, giving different supernatural exapmles, using some scientific facts only known today so as to adpat to humans mentality all over the ages, and the many other different approaches used in it....

CJ, as I think, could only be dealt with the way I used above, and this is not my method with others.

CJ,

Now who's got more knowledge? a person who knows more than a one language and can wander in the literature more freely understanding the other cultures, or someone who's handicapped with one language and doesn't have the intention to remedy his ignorance and throws reproaches without knowing what he's talking about?

Am I not the FITTEST here??!!... Thank Allah for that...

[Edited by khaledx76 on 28th February 2004 at 07:36]

[CreepingJesus]

CJ, as I think, could only be dealt with the way I used above, and this is not my method with others

You haven't dealt with me.

You've simply exposed yourself as someone who appears to condone what normal people would consider to be a brutal assault on a child because it was perpetrated by a man that you think was the messenger of your imaginary shy-god.

Trying to excuse such a vile thing by claiming that it was "normal for the culture at the time", or that the child's father was an accessory and approved of the assault doesn't wash.

For the second time..

Do you regard sex with children as a sin?

Yes or no?

[khaledx76]

Before I give an answer on "yes" or "no", let me point out something:

As you've been told that I'm Deist by Niquie, and you've already been to Sweden.com and checked my posts, you still, however, wanted to believe that I'm Diest.

This shows few things:

1- Any person who has the capacity of a bird's brain would realize that I and Kinison are 2 different people: You aren't that great thinker, and I don't claim to be one as well...

2- Ask yourself: Why would I pretend that I'm Diest and then defend Islam?!

3- It reflects how you force yourself to believe in others (who oppose you in the opinion, esp theological ones) disintigrity...and I tell you one thing: it's all about the intention that you steer.

4- You are easily influenced by others, you believe hearsays that get in line with your way of thinking without questioning them: the same thing happened when you heard about the prophet's -peace be upon him- marriage from Aisha-may Allah be pleased with her- and how the people who spreaded that issue showed that it's a perverted marriage without looking at any other aspect; that's not a very healthy approach to get the real picture of anything...right!!!

5- You argue too much about so many things beyond your knowledge, until your stomach hurts and your brain heats up:

"And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an all manner of similitudes, but man is more than anything contentious." (Al-kahf: 54)


And regarding the "yes" or "no":

1- You should check the psychological state that lady Aisha been through in her life with the prophet PBUH and after his death...and it shows nothing to me but happiness and devotion...Ohterwise, if it was some sort of an abuse, it should've been totally different, Do you agree with me?

2- The prophet PBUH didn't pay his wives much enough for their household and personal belongings expenses (that's the modesty in living all prophets followed), so they complained to him about that. He could've paid them easily by taking from the house of money (just like ministry of finance) or taking money from other Muslims, who wouldn't have thought twice about offering him whatever he wanted. then the verse was revealed to him:

"O Prophet! Say unto thy wives: If ye desire the world's life and its adornment, come! I will content you and will release you with a fair release. "(Al-Ahzab: 28)

"But if ye desire Allah and His messenger and the abode of the Hereafter, then lo! Allah hath prepared for the good among you an immense reward." (29)

and the first one who agreed to that, happily, is Aisha and then the rest of his wives followed her.

3- He didn't have any unlawful relationship before his first marriage to Khadeejuh RAA when he was 25 and she was 40, while it was normal for a lot of the Meccan boys to have mistresses. And he didn't marry anyone else only few yrs after her death.

4- Why don't you ask whether someone who's 25 marrying a 40-yr old woman (which is abnormal nowadays) shows the nobility of the prophet PBUH?

5- I do not consider marrying a young girl who has reached puberty to be a sin...Back in the early days, My aunts and my mother's cousin got married to 30+ yr old men when they were 13. I don't like it though, but i'd never consider it a sin.

6- Nowadays you've got schools that both sexes are busy learning in, which was not the case 1400 yrs or even 70 yrs ago. and that would delay the age of making a commitment (but not physical and mental desires).

7- Why don't we say that you don't really appreiciate how a girl would grow up fast and have mature feeling at a shocking early age: Teenage pregnancy is the highest in the UK, Yes or No?

If you want to hear from me "Yes" or "No" without looking at other facts such as the era and traditions, well, you are not neutral and lack some sensibility. There is a lot of grey in our lives, and the naked eye cannot understand something controversial without digging deeper...


To get to somewhere CJ, you've got to change your attitude and be more open. Otherwise, both of us would be wasting our times discussing with each other: as if we are blowing in punctured baloons where we'd get to nowhere.

In that case, you keep your views for yourself, and i'll keep mine, and leave those who believe to keep on believing without offending them CJ: don't you believe in the freedom of speech and and respect other opposing opinions? No one would interrupt you then.