Cont'd: Sins & Forgiveness

[khaledx76]

CJ,

I don't know if you like "good" rock music, but I think you might find something interesting in this song:

http://www.theskyiscrape.com/song_me...ics.php?id=145

Enjoy...

[ScabbyDouglas]

Khaled.

Well done for setting out your case so clearly in the teeth of that nasty piece of work, Creeping Jeebus. People who will only listen to what one says, without looking for a higher spiritual meaning, and reading between the lines like that. Involving the intensity of religion must recognise the differences and then an allowance for culture and society is what is tradition.

But I'd like you to let me know what you think. This fellow that I work beside is very keen on a young girl who lives next door. He is 28 years old. The girl is only around 11 years old. I am unsure whether he is in love but who can define "love" anyway? But I know that he is a serious chap with serious intentions. Obviously, under our culture, here in Scotland, he would risk the fury of the family, not to mention a severe custodial sentence should he attempt to take the relationship to "the next level".

I was wondering whether you thought he should adopt Islam, as it seems to be OK and acceptable within that context, from what you have said?


Oh I forgot to say - the girl has entered puberty, it appears. I stress that I do not know this for a fact, but my colleague assures me it is so. He says that he has been observing closely. So there.

[khaledx76]

ScabbyDouglas,

Thank you...

Hmmmmmm...Ok,

1- Your friend is a product of a pure western and non-Islamic culture, which means that such conditions don't apply to Muslims only (I haven't yet met Muslims with such persisting fantasies, though there could be some) and the main purpose behind Islam is not to approve such marriages, it's utterly a side issue that one may personally like or dislike.

2- Your friend being fond of this young girl seems to be more emotional than logical or socially considerate.

3- The prophet's, peace be upon him, marriage was based on logical and social considerations rather than infatuation and emotions as per that lady's suggestion to him for future candidates.

What assures that is observing his other wive's ages and his kind yet uncompromised behaviour with all of them. As we know, all prophets -peace be upon them- were known to be wise and patient with good morals before being revealed to so as to gain people's credibility.

4- Even in modern Islamic societies, a 28 yr old male being infatuated by an 11 yr old girl seems odd and abnormal, and most of the people I know nowadays got married to ladies with a 0 to 10 yr difference between them (26-25, 27-18, 26-23, 29-25). I myself (i'm obviously single) would consider marrying a woman who's as young as in her college years to a one who's a couple of yrs older than me; and most preferred is 3-5 younger than me (that's not an online proposal BTW).

5- Marriage in Islam mainly involves sensible and socially approved motives more than just being emotional and sexually appealing. The main aspects to be considered are:

- Morals and personal qualities

- Equivalnce of social background

- Equivalnce in the level of education

- Physical acceptance, age factor (small difference), and mutual interests

Which is basically the same for most of the other societies in the world..
-------------------------------------

I think that it's a fantasy that he's having about her innocence maybe, her pure looks, or this corner of his mind (which we all have) where unconventional thoughts come and go but he cannot control it...I cannot judge him however....

Besides, your friend would cause a havoc if he comes near to her at this young age because:

1- it's socially, morally, and legally unacceptable.

2- I know that for many westreners, a relationship wouldn't be complete if it doesn't involve sex before marriage. And the immoral part here is annoyingly highlighted by child molestation.

3- That man could play with this poor young girl's mind and get her, and might leave her after a while: that's why all 3 religions totally prohibit any kind of extramarital relationships such as fornication and adultery and put limits on whatever might lead to that such as: dress codes, mingling between sexes to contorlled limits, and lowering one's gaze as much as possible....

4- I think, however, that some girls in western societies might have unlimited relationships with boys (where they would go all the way) before reaching high school. To me, a marital relationship between 30 and 13 (2 yrs from now) is much more acceptable than the former situation: after all, it's lawful and doesn't mess the society.

My advice to your colleague is either to:

1- wait for 5 more yrs for her (not even talk to her) and then get married: that would really show if he really loves her by willing to wait all that long...But there are a lot of doubts about her feelings here...i.e.: this is not a practical or a logical solution.

2- or to give up thinking about her (and must not gaze at her) and find himself a college girl (at least) to overcome those thoughts.

3- tell him: "This is the one for me" is a big myth, even if she's at a convenient age (and this is from experience)!! So what about a much younger girl??!!

4- All the intention behind any relationship in my prospect is marriage, without having any kind of physical relation before that....

I hope I made some sense...

[CreepingJesus]

To get to somewhere CJ, you've got to change your attitude and be more open. Otherwise, both of us would be wasting our times discussing with each other: as if we are blowing in punctured baloons where we'd get to nowhere.

In that case, you keep your views for yourself, and i'll keep mine, and leave those who believe to keep on believing without offending them CJ: don't you believe in the freedom of speech and and respect other opposing opinions? No one would interrupt you then.

Something you have to understand.

For me religion is a blight upon humanity. It justifies wars, stifles progress, and breeds ignorance and division between people.

All for nothing.

When you realise there are no gods, all religion becomes utterly worthless and merely a tool by which the powerful manipulate others, mostly the poorest and least educated people in the world.

Religion therefore must not be allowed to go unchallenged.

When you post in a public forum on religion you ought to be prepared for that challenge.

I realise full well I'll never convert somebody as indoctrinated as you are, so my tack is to use you to demonstrate to anyone else who's watching the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of your beliefs. - don't feel singled out, I do this with Christians too, and anybody else who feels the need to expose their beliefs to scrutiny.

All I have to do is throw in a few bits of bait and you respond with a series of rhetorical acrobatics, scientific errors and inaccuracies, post hoc fallacies, and scripture, which expose you as having little knowledge of the world you live in and no command of logic.

A single recent example might be this part of your attempt to justify child rape.....

It should be noted that in the hot regions, it’s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age. Thus the case is totally different from that which does exist in the cold regions where a girl does not attain puberty before 21

Which is..

a: just completely wrong

b: Not an excuse for having sex with a child. A child of 9 no matter how physically developed you seem to think she is, is nonetheless a child.

I could pull many examples from stuff you've written to illustrate my point, but I don't have to. Everybody who has been reading these threads has seen the kind of beliefs you hold and how they bear little resemblance to reality.

So I'm not wasting my time.

You're doing a grand job of proving my point all by yourself.

On the subject of song lyrics, may I quote a song by the Scots writer and composer Birian McNeil

There's no gods, and precious few heroes
But there's plenty on the dole in the Land o' the Leal
And it's time now to sweep the future clear
Of the lies of the past that we know was never real

[moonchaser]

I am somewhat disturbed by anyone condoning sex with a child on a public site.. I am going to close this thread yet again and have a chat with Admin about this... I should delete it but I will get her opinion on it before I do something that drastic.