we are in the 21st century

[-Sigurd-]

Faith should be held with the consent of the intellect, not against it. It's not necessary to prove religious beliefs, but it is necessary to be able to show them to be rational and tenable. Illogical beliefs aren't worth holding.

Very well put, Fear.

[Sharp_Kid]

Fantastically well put, but I feel it equally benefits each side of the current argument.

[ANDY-J2]

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
Of course it's impossible to prove the divine inspiration of the Bible. However it is entirely possible to answer people like ANDY-J2 who make such claims as "anyone who actually took the time to objectively analyze Christianity would cease to be an orthodox Christian."

Faith should be held with the consent of the intellect, not against it. It's not necessary to prove religious beliefs, but it is necessary to be able to show them to be rational and tenable. Illogical beliefs aren't worth holding.

Faith should be a step into the light, not a leap in the dark.

"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth." —John Paul II. Fides et Ratio

It's impossible to prove the divine inspiration of the bible?Say no more-Christianity relies fundamentally on the bible containing a divine revelation and if it's impossible to prove that it contains a divine revelation then from an intellectual viewpoint a belief in Christianity must surely be indefensible-such a belief can only be a matter of faith.Certain orthodox Christian beliefs are very definitely irrational and illogical not to say immoral.Substitutionary atonement for example and the idea of divine retribution merely for the "sin" of disbelieving in Christian dogma are illogical yet they are fundamental beliefs for many Christians.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by ANDY-J2
It's impossible to prove the divine inspiration of the bible?Say no more-Christianity relies fundamentally on the bible containing a divine revelation and if it's impossible to prove that it contains a divine revelation then from an intellectual viewpoint a belief in Christianity must surely be indefensible

Second step does not follow from first! Are you seriously of the opinion that it is logically indefensible to believe anything that can not be proven? Let me answer that question for you: no you aren't. You believe in free-will, an impersonal godhead, the immortality of the soul, reincarnation, and the validity of sensory experience. I assume you hold these beliefs with the consent of your intellect? Well, none of them are possible to prove. You are holding Christianity up to an impossible standard; a standard under which every belief system in the world would fail, save universal, hyperbolic doubt.

Something does not need to be proven beyond all doubt before one may logically accept it. An idea only needs to be shown to be "likely," "probable," "coherent," or "tenable" before one may espouse it with the full consent of the intellect.

Neither orthodox Christianity, nor Modernism, nor Postmodernism, nor Buddhism can be vindicated beyond all doubt. However, it absolutely does not follow that they are all logically indefensible.

Based on the evidence in my first post in this thread, I hold, with the full consent of my intellect, that the Bible is inspired by God. Of course I can't prove this belief beyond all doubt, but I can certainly show it to be "likely" and "probable," that is to say, defensible.

Originally posted by ANDY-J2
Certain orthodox Christian beliefs are very definitely irrational and illogical not to say immoral.Substitutionary atonement for example and the idea of divine retribution merely for the "sin" of disbelieving in Christian dogma are illogical yet they are fundamental beliefs for many Christians.

Substitutionary atonement is more of a Protestant idea. I prefer Augustine and Anslem's paradigms for the atonement: "Christus Victor" and "Satisfaction," respectively. Also, although the moral influence theory is false, it does make some important points.

Aquinas, the master theologian, blends them all.

Divine retribution is not for disbelief itself. It is for walking in sin, a state from which one cannot be freed without belief.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Isaiah 53 is key to understanding the atonement.