The death don't exist

[crescinilorenzo]

My name is Lorenzo Crescini. I am a Captain of the merchant Navy now on retirement.
When I was a secular missionary in an African leprosary, I wrote some Flashes on the Holy Gospels which helped a lot of people by giving them new trust and hope.
You will find them in web site
http://digilander.libero.it/crescini
E mail
flashesgospels@libero.it

Here are the first three Flashes as an example
1. There is the historical proof the myth could not invent the Cross . If the Cross roused a “social orror” by the heathens ,it caused a shocking religious dismay by the Jews. It is not a case that the first christians in order to avoid that the preaching might be jeopardised.,represented the Cross by an anchor ,a plough, a mast, a man praying with open arms.How can we think that this way of dying was put in the myth by the christians themselves ?

2. Should somebody tell us of having seen a dead person on the cross resuscitated, nobody would believe him. But if the same person stating that could also make miracles, then we would believe him. That happened to the Apostles who got the power of making miracles in order to be believed. Without that power, Christianity couldn’t have been born.

3. Jesus says on the Cross: ”My God ,My God ,why did You abandon me ? Such words might even shock the reader. Why should they have been written if they weren’t true,then ?

[Mikal]

"3. Jesus says on the Cross: ”My God ,My God ,why did You abandon me ? Such words might even shock the reader. Why should they have been written if they weren’t true,then ? "

jesus was never cruified, read this dialogue and you will know that he was not cruified.
taen from http://www.al-sunnah.com/books/dialogue.htm

Was Jesus Crucified?
M=mislim
C=christian

M. The Qur'an states in Surah 4:157 that Jesus was not crucified: "And their [Jews'] boasting: 'We killed Messiah Jesus, Son of Mary the Apostle of Allah, but they [Jews] killed him not, nor crucified him ..." Do you still believe that he died on the cross?

C. Yes, he died and was then resurrected.

M. We all agree that nobody saw the moment he was resurrected. They found that the sepulchre in which Jesus had been laid was empty and concluded that he had been resurrected, because the disciples and other witnesses saw him alive after the alleged crucifixion. Could it not be possible, as the Qur'an claims, that he didn't die on the cross?

C. Where is the proof?

M. Let's look at the biblical passages that support this conclusion. Do you give more weight to what Jesus said or to the hearsay of the disciples, apostles, and other witnesses?

C. Of course more to what Jesus himself said.

M. That is in accordance with what Jesus said: Matthew 10:24: "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord."

C. But Jesus himself said that he will rise from the dead: Luke 24:46: "And said unto them: 'Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day."'

M. Suffering is often exaggerated in the Bible and termed "dead," as Paul said in I Corinthians T5:31: "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ, I die daily" (i.e., I suffer daily). Here are some of the proofs:

1. On the cross, Jesus beseeched God for help: Matthew 27:46: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" In Luke 22:42, it is recounted: "Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but shine, be done." (This cup is the cup of death.)

2. Jesus' prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God, according to Luke, the author of Hebrews, and James. Thus, how could he die on the cross?: Luke 22:43: "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." It means that an angel assured him that God would not leave him helpless: Hebrews 5:7: "Who in the days of his flesh, when he [Jesus] had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared."

Jesus' prayers were "heard," which means that they were answered in a positive way by God: James 5:16: "... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Jesus himself said in Matthew 7:7-10: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth, and to him who knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?" If all of Jesus' prayers were accepted by God, including his prayer not to die on the cross, how could he still die on the cross?

3. His legs were not broken by the Roman soldiers: John 19:32-33: "Then came the soldiers, and broke the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs." Can you rely on these soldiers' assertion that Jesus was dead, or did they want to save him out of their belief that he was really innocent?

4. If Jesus died on the cross, his blood would clot and thus no blood would have gushed out of his body when his side was pierced. But the Gospel states that blood and water came out: John 19:34: "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

5. When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign of his true mission, he answered: Matthew 12:40: "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Disregard the time factor, which was also not three days and three nights but one day (Saturday, daytime only) and two nights (Friday night and Saturday night). Was Jonas alive in the belly of the whale?

C. Yes.

M. Was Jonas still alive when he was vomited out of the belly the whale?

C. Yes.

M. Then Jesus was still alive, as he prophesied.

6. Jesus himself stated that he didn't die on the cross. Early Sunday morning Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre, which was empty. She saw somebody standing who looked like a gardener. After a conversation, she realized that he was Jesus and wanted to touch him. Jesus said, as recounted in John 20:17: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father ..." "Touch me not" perhaps because the fresh wound would hurt him. "I am not yet ascended to my Father" means that he was still alive, because when somebody dies he goes back to the Creator. This was the strongest proof and was admitted by Jesus himself.

7. After the alleged crucifixion, the disciples thought that he was not the same Jesus in body but in spirit, because resurrected bodies are "in spirit."

C. Wait a minute. How can you be sure that resurrected bodies are "in spirit"?

M. That is what Jesus himself said in the Bible: that they are equal to angels.

C. Where does he say that?

M. In Luke 20: 34-36: "And answering said unto them: 'The children of the world marry, and are given in marriage. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and then resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Neither can they die any more for they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."'

Then Jesus convinced them that he was the same person by letting them touch his hands and feet. As they could not believe him yet, he asked for meat to show them that he still ate like any living individual. Read Luke 24:36-41: "And as they [the disciples] thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them: 'Peace be unto you.' But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them: 'Why are ye troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see, for a spins hath not flesh and bones, as ye see that I have.' And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for Joy, and wondered, he said unto them: 'Have ye here any meat?' And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

8. If you still believe that he died on the cross, then he was a false prophet and accursed of God according to these passages: beuteronomy 13:5: "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death ..."; Deuteronomy 21:22-23: "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."

To believe in his death on the cross is to discredit his prophethood. The Jews claimed that they killed Jesus on the cross in order to portray him as a false prophet. Christians believe in the crucifixion, for it is necessary for their doctrine of redemption of sin and, consequently, have to accept the accursedness of Jesus, too. This Christian belief opposes the Bible's teaching in Hosea 6:6: "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." It also opposes Jesus' own teaching in Matthew 9:13: "But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice ..." Again Jesus said in Matthew 12:7: "But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless."

C. Why do people believe in the resurrection then?

M. It was Paul who taught the resurrection: Acts 17:18: "... And some [Jews] said: 'What will this babbler say?' To others, He [Paul] seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods, because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection." Paul, who never saw Jesus, also admitted that the resurrection was his gospel (II Timothy 2:8): "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel." He was also the first one to declare Jesus the Son of God: Acts 9:20: "And straightway he [Paul] preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God." So Christianity is not a teaching of Jesus but of Paul.

C. But Mark 16:19 states that Jesus was raised up to heaven and sat on the right hand of God: "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. "

M. As I told you earlier, Mark 16:9-20, has been expunged in certain Bibles: The Revised Standard Version, The New American Standard Bible and The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures of the Jehovah's Witnesses Church. If you still believe that Jesus is divine because he was raised up to heaven, why don't you accept the divinity of other prophets who were raised up to heaven?

C. Who were they?

M. Elijah: II Kings 2:1 1-12: "... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried ... And he saw him no more ..." Enoch was also taken by God to heaven: Genesis 5:24: "And Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him." This was also repeated in Hebrews 11:5: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and was not found, because God translated him, for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Jesus did indeed die.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Cross/index.html

That blood and water came out of His side when the Roman soldier stabbed Him is evidence that He was dead, not that He was living.

Death

The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the leg. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest, and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers approached Jesus, they saw that this was unnecessary.

Apparently, to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. John 19:34 states, "And immediately there came out blood and water." Thus there was an escape of watery fluid from the sac surrounding the heart and the blood of the interior of the heart. This is rather conclusive post-mortem evidence that Jesus died, not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.

Also,
http://www.scotland.com/forums/showt...threadid=14866

[Mikal]

how can you be so sure when bible was written many many years after Jesus. I dont know why you insist that Jesus die are you happie that he died on the cross. Come on man ,think, Jesus was great man he was close to God can you imagine that God humiliated Jesus like that let him half naked die on the cross, God humiliated those who tried to kill jesus, his enemies, by saving Jesus from their evil intention, they could not even touch Jesus.
The man they put on the cross was another man who looked like Jesus, they believed that the man they put on the cross was Jesus.

And if you say that jesus died on the croos because like that he forgive you your sins.

Look at this

Do you know no man (even jesus)that can carry the burden (sins) of another?

Deuteronomy 24:16: The father shall not be put to death for the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sins.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

The Gospels were written between about 25 and 60 years after Jesus' death, either by eyewitnesses or by people in contact with eyewitnesses. They are reliable.

Also, I'm not happy that Jesus died on the cross. Good friday is an occassion for mourning. I am glad that Jesus rose from the dead, which is why I and other Christians celebrate on Easter.

I was well aware of that passage in Deuteronomy. I interpret it to mean that when dispensing justice, you are not to punish a sinner's relatives for the crimes he committed.

This does not contradict the idea of atonement through sacrifice. Read Leviticus and you will find an elaborate system, instituted by God Himself, which uses animal sacrifice to atone for sin. The prophet Isaiah foresaw the culmination of the sacrificial system in the Messiah.

Isaiah 52
13 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. 14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him - his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness- 15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

53
1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (NIV)

Jesus called Himself the Lamb of God. He knew it was His destiny to fulfill this prophesy. That's why He said, in the garden of Gethsamane, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

[Mikal]

"Good friday is an occassion for mourning. I am glad that Jesus rose from the dead, which is why I and other Christians celebrate on Easter."

think about this carefully,

Did jesus command that you christians celebrate Easter, no he did not, so why do you do that. We muslims will not do anything that Muhamed did not commanded us to do.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

We celebrate Easter because something exraordinary happened on that day; namely, Jesus rising from the dead and appearing to His disciples.

If you limit yourself to doing only what the founding father of your religion explicitly commanded, you can't do much of anything. Jesus never commanded His disciples to write down what He said, but it's a good thing they did. Jesus never commanded men to try to unravel the mysteries of the natural world through science, but it's fortunate that we decided to. It's ok to take a little bit of initiative, so long as you don't disobey or contradict any of the principles of your religion.