Is Jesus the Same as God?

[Mikal]

Is Jesus the Same as God?

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In John 10:30 we find that Jesus says "I and my Father are one." This verse, according to Christians, shows clearly that God and Jesus Christ are the same. Also we read in John 20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Here Jesus clearly states that there is distinction between him and God. In other words that Jesus himself has a God. Also Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Here Jesus Christ cries in loud voice calling his God.

These are two different and opposite ways Jesus relates himself to God. The first one that he and God are one, and the second is that he refers to a higher authority than him which is his God. Now assuming that both are correct statements then we have a contradiction. If, for example, Jesus Christ was God himself as in John 10:30 then it would be more appropriate for him to say "...and to myself, and your God." in John 20:17, or "Myself, Myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" in Matthew 27:46. If, on the other hand, one of them is wrong and the other is correct then we have to discard the one that we believe to be incorrect. Since God does not make mistakes then we no longer believe that the Bible is the word of God (because we believe that there is a contradiction God's words).

A third possibility is that we have to look at how we can interpret the words of Jesus in those verses. As far as John 20:17 and Matthew 27:46 it is very clear that Jesus has a God whom he prays to and Whom has a higher authority than him. We can back this up with other verses from the bible that say, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30). Also Jesus says, "...for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). If Jesus and God were the same then he would not have said what he has said in the above verses. Now, the only verse that can be interpreted is John 10:30. It is the only one that does not render itself clear. The only way John 10:30 could be interpreted such that it does not contradict all the other verses is by saying that Jesus meant that he and God have something in common.

To find out what the common grounds are, we have to look at the context which this verse is in:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

As can be seen from John 10:28 and John 10:29 that Jesus is telling the Jews that he and God share something in common, and that is; that no one can pluck the faithful from either of their hands. This is what is common between Jesus and God in this case, and not that Jesus is himself is God, or that they are exactly the same.

Let us go on to see what Jesus says in John 10:

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

John 10:40 And went away again beyond Jordan

In John 10:31 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30). And in John 10:33 they accuse him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he should not hesitate to clarify the matter at this point. Jesus at this point says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" What he is trying to say that if you call "I and my Father are one" blasphemy then you should call what is written in your law "Ye are gods" blasphemy also. The reasoning here is that "Ye are gods" does not mean that you, the Jews, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same with "I and my Father are one." It does not mean that I am God or that we are the same literally. It is just an expression. The same goes for calling himself "the Son of God." This statement should not be taken literally either.

The Holy Quran says, "...Nothing whatsoever (is there) like the like of Him, and He (alone) is All-Hearing and All-Seeing" (Ch 42: Vr 11). Nothing at all is like God, not Moses, not Jesus, not Muhammad, and certainly nothing of His creation.

[thespitfiredragon]

I believe the Holy Trinity to be three distinct beings...God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I believe that when the scriptures refer to them as being "one" they are referring to being on in purpose.

[Mikal]

thespitfiredragon

"I believe the Holy Trinity to be three distinct beings...God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I believe that when the scriptures refer to them as being "one" they are referring to being on in purpose."

do you believe in three gods, oh man, 1+1+1=1

John 20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Here Jesus clearly states that there is distinction between him and God. In other words that Jesus himself has a God. Also Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Here Jesus Christ cries in loud voice calling his God.

read this very intresting dialogue between muslim and christian

The Doctrine of the Divine Son ship of Jesus

M. Is Jesus the Son of God?

C. Yes. Read in Matthew 3:17, when Jesus was baptized by John: "And lo a voice from heaven, saying" 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."'

M. You should not accept the word "son" literally, because the Bible also refers to many prophets and other people as sons and children of God. Read Exodus 4:22.

C. "And thou [Moses] shalt say unto Pharaoh: 'Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."'

M. Here is Jacob (Israel) His firstborn son. Read II Samuel 7:13-14 or I Chronicles 22:10.

C. "He [Solomon] shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be My son."

M. It will be confusing if you read Jeremiah 31:9: "I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn." In Exodus 4:22 just now, Israel was called also called the firstborn. Who is the real firstborn: Israel or Ephraim? Even common people can be children of God. Read Deuteronomy 14:1.

C. "Ye are the children of the Lord your God."

M. Common people can also be called firstborn. Read Romans 8:29.

C. "For whom he did fore know, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren."

M. If all are firstborn, then what is Jesus?

C. He is the only begotten son of God.

M. Long before Jesus was born, God said to David (Psalms 2:7): "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me [David]: 'Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee."' So David is also God's begotten son. The meaning of "Son of God" is not literal but metaphorical. It can be anyone who is beloved by God. Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also your Father (Matthew 5:45, 48).

C. "That ye may be the children of your Father" and "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

M. You can see in many biblical passages that the phrase "Son of God" signifies love and affection and neamess to God, and that it is not to be applied to Jesus alone. You will see sons and daughters of God: II Connthians 6:18: "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." In view of these and other passages in the Bible, there is no reason why Jesus should be regarded as the son of God in a literal or unique sense.

C. But he has no father. That is why he is the son of God.

M. Then you must also consider Adam as a son of God, for he had no father or mother. In Luke 3:38, it is said "... Seth, who was the son of Adam, who was the son of God." Read Hebrews 7:3.

C. "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the son of God; abideth a priest continually."

M. Who is he? The answer is in Hebrews 7:1: "Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham ..." He is more unique than Jesus or Adam. Why is he not considered a son of God or God Himself?

C. What do you call Jesus then?

M. Muslims call him Jesus, the son of Mary.

C. No one will deny this.

taken from http://www.al-sunnah.com/books/dialogue.htm

[thespitfiredragon]

Yes, I guess in a way I DO believe in three Gods, but I don't worship them individually. I pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ...as He is the mediator between us and the Father. I try to live worthily that I might warrent the companionship of the Holy Ghost and be guided. It may be strange math, but it makes a lot more sense to me than one god with multiple personalities.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Wow, Mormonism seems to border on polytheism. The Bible is very clear that God is one unified being. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there are 3 distinct entities that are totally interconnected, making up one God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

[thespitfiredragon]

Fear,

No it doesn't. Mormonism counts them as being distinct, separate, and yet still interconnected. Don't believe me? Go to lds.org and look for our Articles of Faith.

[Mikal]

God said in qoran:

171. O People of the Book(christians and jews)! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.


read this dialogue netween muslim and christian
M=muslim
c=christian

The Doctrine of the Trinity

M. Do you still believe in the Trinity?

C. It is said in the First Epistle of John 5:7-8: "For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one."

M. That is in The King James Version, authorized in 1611, and formed the strongest evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity. But now this part, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one," has been expunged in The Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other Bibles, as it was a gloss that had encroached on the Greek text.

I John 5:7-8 in The New American Standard Bible says: "And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water, and the blood, and the three are in agreement." Also, in The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, you will find: "For there are three witness bearers: the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are in agreement." I can understand if you don't know that this important part has been removed, but I wonder why many ministers and preachers are not aware of this.

The Trinity is not biblical. The word "Trinity" is not even in the Bible or Bible dictionaries. It was never taught or mentioned by Jesus. There is no basis or proof in the Bible for its acceptance.

C. But in Matthew 28: 19 we still find: "... baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." This part has not been removed yet. Is this not a proof of the Trinity?

M. No. If three persons are sitting or eating together, does it mean that they form one person? No. The formulation of the Trinity by Athanasius, an Egyptian deacon from Alexandria, was accepted by the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD‹more than three centuries after Jesus had left. No doubt Roman paganism had an influence on this doctrine of a triune god. The Sabbath was shifted to Sunday and December 25, the birthday of their sun god Mithra, was introduced as Jesus' birthday, although the Bible clearly predicted and forbade the decoration of Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10:2-5: "Thus saith the Lord: 'Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold, they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good."

As Christianity deviated far from the original teachings of Jesus, Allah sent His last prophet, Muhammad, as a revivalist to undo changes made by man: the Roman Julian calendar was introduced as the Christian era; Pork was allowed; circumcision was abolished by Paul (Galatians 5:2: "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

The Qur'an warns in Surah 5:73: Surely they are disbelievers, those who said: 'Allah is one of the three in a Trinity.' But there is none who has the right to be worshipped but one God (Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. Do you still believe in the Trinity, which was never taught by Jesus?

C. But God and Jesus are one (John 14: 11): "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me."

M. Read John 17:21.

C. "That they [the disciples] all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be one in us ..."

M. It is clear here that God and Jesus are one, and that the disciples are one in Jesus and God. If Jesus is God because he is in God, why are the disciples then not God, as they are like Jesus, who is in God? If God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost form one unit‹the Trinity‹with the disciples included they should form a fifteen unit God.

C. But Jesus is God according to John 14:9: "... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father."

M. Look at what comes before and after: (John 14:8): "Philip saith unto him: 'Lord, show us the Father, and it aufficeth us."' (John 14:9): "Jesus saith unto him: 'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hast seen the Father; and how sayest thou then: Shew us the Father?"'

Jesus asked Philip how to show God to the disciples, which is impossible. You should believe in God by admiring His creation: the sun, the moon, all creation, and Jesus, who was created by God. He said in John 4:24: "God is a Spirit" and in John 5:37: "Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." How can you see a spirit? What they saw was Jesus, not God. Paul said in I Timothy 6: 16: "... whom no man hath seen, nor can see." So what you see is not God. The Qur'an says in Surah 5:103: "Vision comprehends Him not, but He comprehends (all) vision. He is the Subtle, the Aware."

C. It is hard to deny what has been taught to us since childhood.

M. Maybe the following questions will give you a better understanding of the Trinity: What is the Holy Spirit?

C. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost and is also God. We are taught that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God. We are not allowed to say Three Gods, but One God.

M. Read Matthew 1:18.

C. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

M. Compare this with Luke 1:26-27.

C. "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

M. In Jesus' miraculous birth Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. What is the Holy Ghost?

C. That being the case, the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel.

M. Do you still believe in the Trinity now?

C. Then God is God and the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel, and Jesus is ...

M. Let me help you: Jesus is a prophet, the son of Mary.

C. How can you solve what we call a divine mystery?

M. We use the Qur'an as the standard to correct man made changes in previously revealed scriptures. If you believe in One God, and Jesus as a prophet