If you could only have one book in your life for guidance, what would it be?

[HollyElise]

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
Melodeon Man, you can't really blame the Bible for Western Society's violent history. White people were violent before Christianity, and if anything Christianity pacified us. Place the blame for wars and exploitation squarely where it lies: on greed and lust for power and conquest. The Bible adamantly denounces both of these. If some people have used the Bible as a front for actions that the it strongly denounces, it's not the Bible's fault, but the fault of the people who pervert it.

Best book for guidance: after the Bible, The City of God by Saint Augustine.

Wars are also frequently caused by famine. It is arguable that WWII began that way, for instance. Sometimes invaders were run off their own land by other invaders. I would not say it is always greed or lust for power and conquest that causes war, by any means. Sometimes it was survival.

But as far as whether the Bible is responsible for violence, I have to agree with Fear. Though religion is often taken as the reason or source for conflict or violence, it is not the religion (or the Bible) that is the source of it, but how individuals or groups of people are interpreting it and using it to justify self-righteousness and superiority over others.

[HollyElise]

Originally posted by Theja
Something to think about for folks like Melodeonman...

Attila the Hun did not read he Bible.

Genghis Khan did not read the Bible.

The Greeks in most of their wars did not read the Bible, and yet could not get along.

The Romans, fierce and brutal to their enemies, were not influenced by the Bible until the 4th Century.

Known for their brutalities, the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, did not care for the religion of the Jews with the Torah.

The Vikings and the Norsemen were barbarians known for vandalising the Christian West --- and the believers would pray "God, save us from the Norsemen."

The Inquisition was not sanctioned in the Bible and yet it got the blame.

Hitler's action was contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Europe benefitted from the Bible in its journey towards modern government and economy.

And oh the former Vikings and Norsemen are now prosperous and peaceful Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc now as Christian nations.

Europe has turned secular humanistic hanging on the coattail of Christianity. Because secular Humanistic ideologies cannot (CANNOT) thrive under Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism.

Bible influenced nations today : Britain, Spain, Canada, Scotland, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Sandinavian countries, etc. Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists have been and are dreaming of living in those lands.

Go ahead, show us a better book.


(Afterthought: Lenin, Stalin, Mussolini, Caecescu, Mao-Tsetung (Red book), Pol Pot (killing fields), all these leaders did not care for the Bible, and yet millions died needlessly for their causes. And yes, there are still many Bible loving believers in the USA which have won the cold war to make the world a better place.)

[Edited by Theja on 1st July 2003 at 15:23]

Oh, Theja, really! That is an incredibly illogical, puerile, and bigotted argument. Jesus Christ didn't read the Gospels and he was a Jew. He probably was illiterate and didn't read the old testament either. Where does that put him in your estimation?

Christians have murdered and slaughtered tens of thousands in the Crusades in the name of Christianity.

The one Christian pharoah put thousands to death for not converting to Christianity.

Constantine, so revered for spreading CHristianity, declared it the only religion of the Roman Empire and tortured pagan priests to death and murdered, evicted, imprisoned and tortured countless non-Christians throughout the Roman Empire.

Christian Serbs committed horrifying war-crimes and genocide against Muslims during the Bosnian war conflict in their crusade for "ethnic cleansing." "And when I saw religious symbols being used with such devastating manipulation and power from 1989 to the present, I felt someone had to get involved and study it. And the more I got involved, the more I found that the religious mythology was indeed a central cause, a motivating factor, in the genocide." - Dr. Michael Sells, author of the The Bridge Betrayed: Religion and Genocide in Bosnia.

Hitler's actions were as you said, "contrary to the Bible".... what a convenient argument for you to attempt to disown Christian ethnic cleansing. But during WWII many Christians (not all, certainly) used Christianity precisely as justification for the genocide and torture of the Jews and Gypsies. It is precisely your type of argument that they used to argue their superiority, as well.

There are plenty more examples of crime in the name of Christian faith. Christianity most definitely does not have lilly-white hands in war and religious persecution. To claim that it is somehow superior in this regard is utterly fallaceous.

Einstein, Ghandi, Thich Nhat Hanh, Aristotle, Benjamin Franklyn, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, are just a few non-Christians who have contributed greatly to humanity.

There is plenty of reason to be proud of being Christian and the many positive things Christianity and CHristians have brought to the world, but to claim it is somehow superior and ignore and discount evidence of Christian history's atrocities in order to claim superiority over other religions and peoples is childish and ignorant at best, and fanatical and bigotted at worst.

[HollyElise]

Originally posted by Theja
Sharp-Kid, I notice your ignorance of the Bible and the Koran. And I also notice your not-so-sharp obeservation.

Please call the foreign service office of those countries and ask the number of applicants and how long the lines are each work day of the week. You will be surprised the thousands of visa rejections they had to issue.

I rest my case.

You're arguments are totally irrational. You do not know why people of "those countries" wish to emigrate and can offer absolutely no evidence of their religion or the intention of a single one wishing religious conversion to Christianity. Even if you could, it would not argue the point you are trying to make because you are choosing evidence so selectively and drawing highly illogical conclusions.

Please note for your future arguments: Anecdotal evidence is not proof of either causality or majority. It can only be used to prove universal statements (such as several you are trying to make) to be untrue.

Diagramatically, your "logical" argument is akin to:
Kitty is a mammal,
all dogs are mammals,
therefore kitty is a dog.

You are saying:
People from non-Christian nations want to get into the U.S., U.K., etc.
The U.S., U.K. etc. are predominantly Christian,
therefore immigrants from non-Christian nations want to be Christian (or in a Christian nation, shall we say).

This is a totally unsupported conclusion and very bigotted. Use your passion for personal faith, not arrogance and self-righteousness.

There are more non-Christians on this earth than Christians and they are not by majority clamouring to basque in Christian influence. Non-Christians largely do not want to be "saved" by Christianity and the western world, rather they are happy with their own faith, moving in their own direction, and find this kind of arrogance and attempt at domination offensive, and quite understandably.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by HollyElise
Jesus Christ didn't read the Gospels and he was a Jew. He probably was illiterate and didn't read the old testament either.

The first few chapters of Luke imply that Jesus did learn to read. Also, if He hadn't read the OT I don't think He would have been able to quote it so well.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by HollyElise
You do not know why people of "those countries" wish to emigrate and can offer absolutely no evidence of their religion or the intention of a single one wishing religious conversion to Christianity.

Theja never said they all wanted to convert, only that they wanted to emigrate to a rich western country.

[Theja]

Thanks HollyElise for exposing your IGNORANCE.

Jesus read the Bible and quoted the Bible.
Example: Luke 4:14-21. (read)

Quotes: Matthew 4:1-11; 5:17-48, etc.


Now you are the one with a puerile CREDIBILITY. Many things you say are too shallow.

[Edited by Theja on 2nd July 2003 at 06:48]

[Theja]

The reason I stated some general observations about cruelty perpetrated in the past by godless men were meant for readers to SEE THE BIG PICTURE.

People keep blaming the Bible for the things done contrary to and in ignorance of the teachings of the Bible. Interpreted accurately and observed faithfully, the Bible is the best influence the world have ever seen.

We can debate this till kingdom come, so I'm not interested in that. But I know there are both historical and contemporary facts to back that up.

As a starter, any interested person can, if you can find, read the book by Dr.James Kennedy : " What if Jesus had never been born?"

Also a book by Dr. Don Richardson: "Peace Child", Readers Digest award. About several tribes in Papua New Guinea in perpetual enmity and war until the Gospel transformed them and introduced them to the civilized world. Warning: once you flip a few pages, you can't put it down. Its ok to have red eyes in the morning and sleep in your job (kidding).