Contradictions,inconsistencies and absurdities within the bible.

[ANDY-J2]

Originally posted by ANDY-J2
In Genesis 10:5, 20, 31 we learn that

"From these the coastland peoples spread. These are the sons of Japheth in their lands, each with his own language, by their families, in their nations ... These are the sons of Ham, by their families, their languages, their lands, and their nations ... These are the sons of Shem, by their families, their languages, their lands, and their nations."

However in Genesis 11:1 we learn that

"Now the whole earth had one language and few words. And as men migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there." (Genesis 11:1)

Now, the author (or redactor, if you ascribe to the JEDP myth) of Genesis would have to have been retarded to have left two blatantly contradictory statements right next to each other. So, we can safely assume that there is an explanation. And there is.
Andy, you are falsely assuming chronological order. As you can see by the story of The Tower of Babel in Genesis 11, God's intent was for man to spread out across the earth and use different languages. Instead, man decided to be lazy, stay in one place, and speak one language. So, God had to "confuse the tongues", and scatter humanity across the world Himself. Genesis 10 records the nations and languages that He created.That much of what Genesis 10 records precedes the events of Genesis 11 is made clear by the text itself. See Gen 10:10-11. It says that Nimrod's kingdom was originally in Babel, in the land of Shinar. Then, later[/i] he went forth into Assyria.


Fear nam Beantann,
Well there is one very obvious alternative explanation which you are conveniently ignoring and which is surely more plausible than the one which you have provided.The various texts could have been (in fact undoubtedly were) written by separate people who had no knowledge of what the other/s had written.Is it not now accepted by Christians that the Pentateuch which was originally ascribed to Moses in fact had several different authors?Anyone who takes the time to read the Pentateuch would accept that it had to have been written by more than one person and this to me seems a perfectly satisfactory explanation for the many blatant contradictions within it and the fact that each writer had no knowledge of what the other had written undermines the notion that the writers received plenary inspiration from God.

[ANDY-J2]

[quote]Originally posted by HollyElise

Originally posted by ANDY-J2

WHY? I absolutely fail to see how this follows.

Didn't you ever play "telephone" as a kid? You pass a message through people and you laugh to see how distorted it comes out at the other end.

God is perfect. Humans are flawed. If God speaks through humans can not flaws enter into it?

And why would something have to be perfect to be divinely inspired? Ask fine artists and musicians and many will tell you their work was divinely inspired, some will tell you that God worked through them. They don't for a moment, however, think that means their work is perfect, because they know that the instrument used to produce the work is flawed.

Inspiration is inspiration. It is not total control of the end product. I don't see you using this word the way it is defined in the dictionary.

So do you still think it has to follow that if the Bible was divinely inspired it could not contain flaws? If so, can you please tell me why?

By flaws I was not meaning a few minor discrepancies I was referring to wholesale contradictions between various biblical texts,which are so blatant as to fundamentally undermine the idea that God could have inspired the authors.There are two kinds of divine inspiration-there is literal inspiration that is God has dictated every word within holy scripture which is what Christian fundamentalists believe and there is plenary inspiration i.e.the idea that God's spirit guided the authors when they were writing the various texts.Now if one believed that God's spirit was guiding the writers of Psalms and Isiah then how can the obvious contradiction regarding righteousness be explained-they are clearly contradictory statements.If he was guiding the writers of the book of Jeremiah and the book of James,how can it be that a God who sanctions child murder-that is not a transcription error that is clearly what the text is stating-suddenly becomes "a God whos mercy endureth forever?"The two texts paint a very different picture of the same God.I accept that transcription errors will inevitably have occurred but can we just conveniently pick and choose what statements are in error when it supports our point of view.This is what Christians do of course but it seems to me that if,as they concede there are numerical discrepancies then there could very easily be discrepancies in the passages which are fundamental to christian faith.A few supposed transcription errors would not be of great importance to the question of plenary inspiration-blatant contradictions however are and there are,I would argue,a great many of these contained within the bible.

[HollyElise]

Originally posted by ANDY-J2

By flaws I was not meaning a few minor discrepancies I was referring to wholesale contradictions between various biblical texts,which are so blatant as to fundamentally undermine the idea that God could have inspired the authors.There are two kinds of divine inspiration-there is literal inspiration that is God has dictated every word within holy scripture which is what Christian fundamentalists believe and there is plenary inspiration i.e.the idea that God's spirit guided the authors when they were writing the various texts.Now if one believed that God's spirit was guiding the writers of Psalms and Isiah then how can the obvious contradiction regarding righteousness be explained-they are clearly contradictory statements.If he was guiding the writers of the book of Jeremiah and the book of James,how can it be that a God who sanctions child murder-that is not a transcription error that is clearly what the text is stating-suddenly becomes "a God whos mercy endureth forever?"The two texts paint a very different picture of the same God.I accept that transcription errors will inevitably have occurred but can we just conveniently pick and choose what statements are in error when it supports our point of view.This is what Christians do of course but it seems to me that if,as they concede there are numerical discrepancies then there could very easily be discrepancies in the passages which are fundamental to christian faith.A few supposed transcription errors would not be of great importance to the question of plenary inspiration-blatant contradictions however are and there are,I would argue,a great many of these contained within the bible. [/b]

aaaahhhhh.... Now i think i see where you're coming from. Your point, "can we just conveniently pick and choose what statements are in error when it supports our point of view" is particularly good, i think.

Not to get off topic, but Islam has a similar problem and in a way it is even more ticklish because they consider the Koran to be divine (and not Muhammed, it is reversed), much as Christians consider Jesus to be divine. Also, the Koran is much more literal, and it clearly states in it that the Koran is not to be intellectually debated in the theological sense. Muslims do anyway, of course but it makes theology a bit of a nightmare because you are walking on thin ice to do it. I wonder how they are trying to solve these issues, particularly when it gets into the problem of modernizing laws which spring from the Koran.

So what do you think the solution might be for how to address the irregularities and contradictions in the Bible?

[ANDY-J2]

Holly Elise,
I don't know the solution to the problem given that faith in the divine inspiration of scripture is fundamental to the beliefs of evangelicals.I think however that it is one of a number of issues which the church will have to address at some point in the future.Does religious fundamentalism have a place in modern societies?In the UK and Europe the answer has been a resounding no,given that its popularity has declined markedly in recent years and I suspect that its demise in the USA will also be inevitable.

[HollyElise]

errrrrh... that would be nice but i'm not holding my breath! You know we still have fundamentalists here who dance with SNAKES? I'm afraid America has a loooooooooong way to go before it's various forms of fundamentalism disappear. There are many, many, single-site churches (Baptist, usually) where the pastor is the final word and pretty much defines his own religion at the pulpit, and some of them are mighty strange!

When i took a religious course at a university i was absolutely amazed at the myoptic understanding many of people in my own county have of Christianity. Some had never heard of communion before (!!!!!!?!) or had even a vague understanding that Christians of different denominations have differences in their services or different ways of looking at things... and this is their own religion! They knew far less about other religions. I must say it frightens me. We're talking about people who vote... and if they know so little about the variety of their own religion in their own back yard... then how can they make informed voting decisions?

[thespitfiredragon]

Okay, I realize that the "as a snail melts" thing was not a big deal in this very interesting debate...BUT it's true...SNAILS DO MELT...I feel very special providing an eye-witness account of this interesting (if not completely disgusting) phenomenon. A snail, if assaulted (ha-ha, get it?) with a pinch of salt will melt just like goozy grayish butter. It's amazing the knowledge you get from having little brothers!

Anyway...non-Christian can't be expected to accurately understand the Christian religion/philosophy. The Bible even tells us that...watch out, I'm gonna paraphrase here: The way of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to the saved it is eternal life. That's from somewhere in the abyss of the Pauline letters.

As Christian we can't 100% prove what we believe...not even to ourselves...we have to go on faith. Faith is (paraphrasing again): the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Mistakes in the Bible are to be expected...the Bible was hand-written a zillion times over. MAN here is fallible...not GOD.

When you talk about the God that is merciless...if I understand you correctly what you're talking about is in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament the Lord's people were under the Mosaic Law...and there were consequences for not following it. If you read about the Mosaic Law a lot of it is pretty much a no-brainer...:Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's daughter, she is thy sister. Uh, okay. Then we get to the New Testament and all the sudden we're expected to be perfect "as our Father which is in heaven is perfect"...that's upping the stakes! God made the stakes higher, but gave us the atonement to help us through.

Christ was born, He lived, He died, and then He rose again...I can't prove it...BUT I KNOW IT.

[Sharp_Kid]

"....Blitzkrieg and the doodlebug,
Salt upon a bubbling slug..."

-Cut Some Rug - The Bluetones

If it works on slugs, I'm willing to stretch the imagination to encompass snails.