comparative utopias

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Something a certain Scottish Marxist said a while ago has gotten me thinking. He claimed that if you took all of the superstition out of Christianity you would be left with Communism. Well, it's true that the ideal Christian society and the ideal Communist society have many points of contact, there are an equal number of points of diametric opposition.

Let's start with the similarities:

No war or famine.
Total harmony among all men and women.
Cooperative economics instead of competetive.
An end to all selfishness.

However, the list of differences is much longer. It starts with the way society would be structured. The ideal Christian society would be totally family centered. It's highest ideals would be love for God and love for one's family. Sexual relationships would be totally monogamous and children would stay close to their parents their entire lives. The Communist ideal would have no families at all. Sex would be free and easy, and the community would raise children. There would be no privacy, and very little human intimacy. The Christian society would be stricter in every aspect of morality.

The Christian society would also hold human life in much higher regard. The Communist society would not be adverse to human experimentation or abortion, both of which would be anathema to the Christian.

Obviously, the Christian society would be religious! The Communist society would not.

Perhaps the greatest difference would be in the way the society would have to be acheived. According to Marx, the Proletariat would have to violently overthrow the Bourgoise before the ideal Communist society could be established. The Christian ideal is more realistic. It recognizes that utopia can only be acheived through peaceful means. The Christian utopia would rely on the inward transformation of all of its citizens through Jesus Christ. Christians know that for society to change, people must change too.

This is one of the great failings of Communism. It doesn't follow human nature. Communism says that utopia can be established through a bloody revolution which changes the external political framework, but leaves people inwardly the same. And humans are by nature exploitative. If you can't inwarldy change human nature, you can't establish utopia. This is why Communist societies always fail. The exploitative Bourgoise just get replaced by even more exploitative Commmunist Party leaders. The leaders of the political-military establishment become aristocrats living off the blood and sweat of the working class peasants. The Russians described life in the Soviet Union as "the second serfdom, that of the Bolsheviks."

Summary: Communism is a load of crap and Christianity is true

[Sharp_Kid]

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
This is why Communist societies always fail.

I think the Chinese might have something to say about that.

Summary: Communism is a load of crap and Christianity is true

Bold statement. I'm not saying Communism isn't crap, but to decide that Christianity is true on the basis of what you actually posted is a giant leap of faith, but then I suppose that's what religion is all about.

[ANDY-J2]

An ideal society would be based on all of the moral precepts which are central to Christianity such as tolerance and charity towards one's fellow man,however there would be no room in an ideal society for all of the meaningless dogma which is an integral part of the Christian religion.Christians would be unable to create an ideal society because they would be unable to agree on what constituted ideal.Their religion is fragmented into countless sects each with different ideas on matters of dogma and liturgy,each governed by different sets of rules and formularies.There are liberal christians who have as much antipathy towards conservatives as they have towards non-believers and vice-versa.What would be ideal for a conservative would be a society where fundamentalist teachings could be rammed down people's throats whether they wanted to hear them or not.What constitutes an ideal society for a Catholic would differ from what a protestant would regard as ideal.The Christian church has for the past 200 years been characterised by internal division and discord and the same would be true of any Christian society.The Victorians made a real effort to create the ideal Christian utopia however it proved to be an unnattainable goal.If Christianity encouraged nothing more than an adherence to the moral precepts laid out by Christ it would be a solid foundation for a society however Christianity incorporates a whole host of arguably immoral and irrational doctrines which are alien to the teachings of Christ and it could never therefore be a sound foundation on which to construct any society.


Summary-The moral teachings of Christ are fundamentally sound and any society which was founded solely upon such teachings would surely come close to being an ideal society.However any society which was founded on the Christian religion would be characterised by disharmony and strife and it would inevitably descend into anarchy.When Christianity has finally been rooted out of this world and consigned to the scrapheap where it belongs then humanity may be a step closer to attaining utopia .

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Sharp_Kid
I think the Chinese might have something to say about that.

Communism did fail in China. The government they have now is authoritarian, but very capitalistic.

Bold statement. I'm not saying Communism isn't crap, but to decide that Christianity is true on the basis of what you actually posted is a giant leap of faith, but then I suppose that's what religion is all about.

I enjoy making bold, unsupported claims at the end of my posts, just to stir things up. My reasons for believing Christianity to be true are far more numerous and complex than what I wrote here.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by ANDY-J2
there would be no room in an ideal society for all of the meaningless dogma which is an integral part of the Christian religion.

There are no meaningless dogmas in Christianity. Name one.

If Christianity encouraged nothing more than an adherence to the moral precepts laid out by Christ it would be a solid foundation for a society however Christianity incorporates a whole host of arguably immoral and irrational doctrines which are alien to the teachings of Christ and it could never therefore be a sound foundation on which to construct any society.

Remember, while Christ's teachings are central to Christianity, they do not constitute the entire religion. You seem to want Christians to throw out the entire Bible except for the Gospels. But doing so would be an affront to Christ Himself. He repeatedly refrenced the Old Testament Scriptures, and based many of His teachings on them. While He was very critical of man-made doctrines that contraverted Scripture, He was a firm believer in divinely inspired, Biblical dogma.

And Christ was not an enlightened spiritual teacher. In light of His repeated claims to divinity, He must have either been the Son of God, a demon, or a lunatic. Christ left no room for a logical observer to deem Him a great teacher but nothing more.

Christians would be unable to create an ideal society because they would be unable to agree on what constituted ideal.Their religion is fragmented into countless sects each with different ideas on matters of dogma and liturgy,each governed by different sets of rules and formularies.

You would be surprised how much common ground Christians have. Maybe you have been to too many Celtic/Rangers games, because from where I'm sitting, Christian ecumenicalism is ruling the day.

There are liberal christians who have as much antipathy towards conservatives as they have towards non-believers and vice-versa.

Liberal Christians tend to take politically correct, but logically untenable positions. They also cave in to non-believers on such fundamental issues as the historical validity of the Bible.

What would be ideal for a conservative would be a society where fundamentalist teachings could be rammed down people's throats whether they wanted to hear them or not.

No, what would be ideal for a conservative would be a society filled with libraries and Biblical scholarship, where people eagerly learned the rational and historical foundations of their faith, thus enabling them to believe with their whole hearts and minds as Christ commanded. The society you describe is a society of fedism, which St. Augustine decried.

Also, the conservative Christian would not want people to pick and choose which parts of the Christian religion they believe in, as liberals do. They would want people to either accept it all or reject it all.

Summary-The moral teachings of Christ are fundamentally sound and any society which was founded solely upon such teachings would surely come close to being an ideal society.However any society which was founded on the Christian religion would be characterised by disharmony and strife and it would inevitably descend into anarchy.When Christianity has finally been rooted out of this world and consigned to the scrapheap where it belongs then humanity may be a step closer to attaining utopia.

Again, you are trying to seperate following Christ from Christian dogma. This is impossible, because dogma, at it's simplest definition, is an interpretation of scripture, which Christ taugh us to revrence. Summary: Christ taught dogma.

[Sharp_Kid]

Well, it sounds like there will be no room for me in this Christian ideal world.
I like your commitment to your faith though, Fear, and I like your bold statements.

I'm not sure I'd like to get into an argument about meaningless dogma, afterall, someone might get offended and I'm not here to offend (honest, TomSawyer, if you're reading).
We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
And countless other things no doubt.

[ANDY-J2]

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan

There are no meaningless dogmas in Christianity. Name one.

Substitutionary atonement is a meaningless doctrine.A belief that anyone but yourself can ever bring you salvation is fundamentally misguided.We are each responsible for the consequences of our actions and must therefore achieve salvation through our own strivings.I also find this doctrine immoral-how can a loving God allow such a barbaric fate as crucifixion to happen to his son.If he did then he is not a loving God.Likewise there is a paradox between the concept of an all loving God and the idea of a God who judges and metes out retribution not only on sinners but even on people whose only transgression was to choose not to follow Christianity.




Again, you are trying to seperate following Christ from Christian dogma. This is impossible, because dogma, at it's simplest definition, is an interpretation of scripture, which Christ taugh us to revrence. Summary: Christ taught dogma.

Christ taught unconditional tolerance and respect for others.In the parable of the good Samaritan it is the lawyer and religious zealot who are worthy of condemnation while the Samaritan-a social outcast proves himself to be the true Christian.Christianity is a way of life which involves following the moral example of Christ.There are plenty of "Christians" in this day and age who are like the lawyer and the zealot in the parable mentioned above.They can quote scripture,they go to church and exhibit false religious piety yet they are not Christians because they do not accept in their hearts the moral goodness of what Christ taught.If Christ were alive today,I think he would be aghast at the religion which has been constructed around his teachings,because it's intolerance and hypocrisy is the very antithesis of his true message about the brotherhood of man.