Burns - Now and Then

[JKennedy]

I would like some help understanding certain parts of Burns. It is partly a language thing, but I think it has more to do with interpeting his poetry and understanding how people and Burns did their thinking in those days. It's the last line of this stanza I am having trouble with. I understand Burns added it in one of his version of to the old song 'Comin' Thro' the Rye'. I understand it was the one he wrote on the window of a tavern. I don't know what year it was and what his personal life might have been about at that time.

"Gin a body kiss a body comin' thro' the grain,
Need a body grudge a body what's a body's ain?"

First, literally translated I understand it to mean something like:
"If a person kiss a person walking through a field,
Need a person judge a person for what is a person's own?"

Second, interpretation, which is problematic because there are a lot of 'bodies' and you can get them mixed up.
I think in the last line Burn's is simply asking the reader:
"Why is it neccessary to judge another person for their actions or feelings
when those feelings or actions belong to the other person and not to you."

Do I have it close? What is the most common interpretation today? Do you think it is interpreted the same way today as it was when it was written by Burns? But this is what I am driving at: Are literal or singular interpretations considered more neccessary today than it Burn's day? Was it ever more acceptable in Scotland to believe that the same thing could have simultaneously more than one meaning, or did this vary from person to person just as much then as today?

Do you think we have too much literalism today?
Does this even extend so far as to the interpretation of poetry?

Comment:
What is so brilliant about this added verse, I think, is that all the 'bodies' create so much ambiquity that it forces people to consider the very question which I think the verse is all about. He breaks rules to make his point because people are more important than rules. That is what I think he is saying. That was Burn's legacy. I think.

It is similar to a couplet by some lesser known English poet, but it was more about poetry being more important than rhymes, or maybe love being more imortant than rules. I guess it is the same point. Can't recall his name though. Shame. Ah well doesn't matter.

[kathyv]

Gin = if, should, whether, by

I think in this song gin is should.... just my take on it,

Should a person kiss (or show kindness) to another person regardless of their station or work in life, then should that person be judged harshly by that action?

Burns lived in a class society and I think he was trying to make humanity see each other as humanity! Not gentry/servent.... again, my take on it! He mentions this kind of attitude again in A Man's a Man for a' that. Nothing special or better than anyone else, just a man.

An interesting site, http://www.robertburns.org lots of info there.

[JKennedy]

Originally Posted by kathyv

Gin = if, should, whether, by

I think in this song gin is should.... just my take on it,

Should a person kiss (or show kindness) to another person regardless of their station or work in life, then should that person be judged harshly by that action?

Burns lived in a class society and I think he was trying to make humanity see each other as humanity! Not gentry/servent.... again, my take on it! He mentions this kind of attitude again in A Man's a Man for a' that. Nothing special or better than anyone else, just a man.

An interesting site, http://www.robertburns.org lots of info there.

'Should' is better, more precise I think. Thanks. I am not always as precise as I should be.

Yes I agree that society was more class structured then. It was also somewhat preoccupied with either developing or reacting against new ideas on natural socialism coming out of Switzerland and France and Burns was a big part of that modern thinking. 'Too a mouse' and 'Too a louse' are other examples of this. I hadn't thought of 'Comin thro the Rye' as being about class taboos so much as moral taboos, but now that you mention it I see that they were and are still very inseparable. I am thinking of some recent examples in the news where one person is not judged the same as another, or is held accountable for a certain morality crime, when the real issue is that they have broken a class or racial taboo. 'Too Kill a Mockingbird' covers this theme also. Thanks again.

So what about the extra verse with all the 'bodies'? Is it simply saying the same thing in a different way or is he adding something? Was there something in particular going on in Burns' life at the time? I am not sure. One of the troubles with Burns poetry, I think, is that like many good things it was somewhat hijacked by the establishment. Not that they aren't well meaning, but it is somewhat ironic. I am wondering if this extra stanza was out of some frustration with being misunderstood by those that were accepting his ideas while maintaining certain bias. I suppose the same could be said about the history of the church. I am looking forward to the film 'Burns' while at the same time dreading all the hype and revisionism that always occurs. Ah well. Best laid plans, eh.

p.s. Your horse and dog signature remind me of Joan M. Auel. Isn't she from Oregon also?
She and her husband are also fond of the coast I think. Me likes the little lighthouse.

[kathyv]

I think when he took it to bodies, he expanded globally. He began with body and went on to bodies, he meant the same ideas but moved it into the world rather than your neighbor.

Ms. Auel is from Oregon, I think she lives in Waldport which is on the coast. I live an 8 hour drive from the ocean, across the other side of the state. The dog and the horse pics are in honor of my dogs and my horses and the light house is a trubute to my best friend!

[Celyn]

Originally Posted by kathyv

I think when he took it to bodies, he expanded globally. He began with body and went on to bodies, he meant the same ideas but moved it into the world rather than your neighbor.

.....................

I expect he had global ambitions in that direction, yes.

btw, "kiss" was not all that he intended. What you have is the nice polite version. cf song 40 in this "Merry Muses" collection.

http://www.immortalia.com/html/books...tion/index.htm