Languages - So To Speak

[Crofter]

I admire and applaud your interest in the Gaelic language but until you become competent, confident and proficient in it, it would be doing it no service to give the impression that you can communicate in it authoritatively. To continue as you are doing misrepresents the language to non-speakers and may attract derision, scorn, even contempt, from those who do speak the language.

I would hesitate to allow a DIY enthusiast to build a house for me, nor a student doctor to operate on me. I may think I am Pavarotti singing in the bath or shower but I know full well that I’ll never be invited to perform in the Albert Hall.

Grammatical and spelling rules in Gaelic differ to those in English. One misplaced letter can alter the meaning and the tense of a word, the rules governing the construction of the sentence are not the same as in English, and this is why literal translation is not always possible. If you drive in the UK would you use all the rules of the road applicable on the Continent?

If you construct an intelligible sentence in English, then take all the words and mix them up, the result would be, at best, a sentence with a different meaning, at worst, gibberish.

Apart from the above I have a lot of sympathy with what you have to say about Gaelic’s place in Scottish history and culture and the crass arrogance of the southern invaders and their offspring, who imposed a corrupted version of their own language on the people of Scotland then had the audacity to give it a stolen name.

The truth of most of the points you make are well documented and the argument has been made many times on this forum, all to no avail. Ordinarily, as regular readers may well know, I do not engage in controversy or the frequent mud-slinging matches that many threads on this forum regularly descend to. You will find that your antagonists will use every trick in the book against you, mockery, ridicule, lies, slander, abuse, distractions and distortions. Finally, when they have dug and squirmed into their hole so deep that they can’t get out of it, they go whinging to Mammy, Admin, to ask for you to be sanctioned or expelled from the forum. You will need to give as good as you get, I’m sure you are up for it.

Making your point in Gaelic, even if you could do it well, would be wasted on people who do not understand it. Making your point in English, as you will find, is hard enough for some on this forum to grasp.

[Lachlan09]

I can't help but think you should encourage people to speak, write and understand Gaelic and encourage their attempts, offering constructive advice to improve their knowledge and delivery. To suggest that they need to be fluent before trying it out in public is to discourage them from trying.

The only way you learn without falling by the wayside is by going in at the deep end with people who are fluent, IMHO.

[tig]

i think crofter may be aiming his point in the way of those who after reading some web page or online translation dictionary offer themselves up as experts on the language and then spout total nonsense on the subject.

you know who you are

[Duthill]

Originally Posted by Crofter

...... I Ordinarily, as regular readers may well know, I do not engage in controversy or the frequent mud-slinging matches that many threads on this forum regularly descend to. You will find that your antagonists will use every trick in the book against you, mockery, ridicule, lies, slander, abuse, distractions and distortions .....

The above is an outright lie . The latest in a litany of lies told by 'crofter' .

The posts containing all the proof that is needed to show that the above is a blatant lie can be found here along with every trick in the book ; mockery, ridicule , slander, abuse, distractions and distortions , and of course , more lies.

[Crofter]

Lachlan,

In no way was my post intended to discourage anyone, in fact I specifically stated my admiration for one member in particular who will doubtless conclude that I was referring to him, but it could equally apply to several.

The member I was addressing, and who, I hope, will take it as constructive criticism, has been posting in Gaelic for some time and nobody made any effort to correct him, although several tried to get him to stop. Was this because his efforts were still admired and to be encouraged, or was it because nobody had a clue what he was on about one way or the other, far less whether he was right or wrong? Encouraging him to continue as he was would have been the greater dis-service to him and to the language he claims to admire.

Members on his site use the English language, albeit shakily in some cases, to communicate. There have been many occasions when this point was forcefully made and the mere mention of the Gaelic language and culture derided and frowned on.

There are quite a few sites on the web devoted to Gaelic where exchanges in the language takes place among people who understand each other. Surely those sites would be of more interest and benefit if he wishes to progress in his studies. Nobody on this site who may be fluent in Gaelic, apart from myself, has made any comment one way or the other. This leads me to conclude that there is nobody here to help him, or choose to help him. In which case how is all this going to further his studies? He would be deluding himself into believing that he could communicate in Gaelic, like those who would be Chiefs, or the descendants of Chiefs.

The same member, and a few others, attempt to converse in the “Scots” language. In many cases their efforts are grammatically wrong. Nobody corrects them, probably because the biggest culprits are those who claim to be the knowledgeable ones. They either do not know or they do not care. Either way whether or not they corrupt an already corrupt English does not concern me.

To whom it may concern, my remarks were aimed at regular readers and not the permanent parasites. To them I say simply “Keep your beak out”

[SeamusAlba]

Originally Posted by Crofter

I admire and applaud your interest in the Gaelic language but until you become competent, confident and proficient in it, it would be doing it no service to give the impression that you can communicate in it authoritatively. To continue as you are doing misrepresents the language to non-speakers and may attract derision, scorn, even contempt, from those who do speak the language.

I would hesitate to allow a DIY enthusiast to build a house for me, nor a student doctor to operate on me. I may think I am Pavarotti singing in the bath or shower but I know full well that I’ll never be invited to perform in the Albert Hall.

Grammatical and spelling rules in Gaelic differ to those in English. One misplaced letter can alter the meaning and the tense of a word, the rules governing the construction of the sentence are not the same as in English, and this is why literal translation is not always possible. If you drive in the UK would you use all the rules of the road applicable on the Continent?

If you construct an intelligible sentence in English, then take all the words and mix them up, the result would be, at best, a sentence with a different meaning, at worst, gibberish.

Apart from the above I have a lot of sympathy with what you have to say about Gaelic’s place in Scottish history and culture and the crass arrogance of the southern invaders and their offspring, who imposed a corrupted version of their own language on the people of Scotland then had the audacity to give it a stolen name.

The truth of most of the points you make are well documented and the argument has been made many times on this forum, all to no avail. Ordinarily, as regular readers may well know, I do not engage in controversy or the frequent mud-slinging matches that many threads on this forum regularly descend to. You will find that your antagonists will use every trick in the book against you, mockery, ridicule, lies, slander, abuse, distractions and distortions. Finally, when they have dug and squirmed into their hole so deep that they can’t get out of it, they go whinging to Mammy, Admin, to ask for you to be sanctioned or expelled from the forum. You will need to give as good as you get, I’m sure you are up for it.

Making your point in Gaelic, even if you could do it well, would be wasted on people who do not understand it. Making your point in English, as you will find, is hard enough for some on this forum to grasp.

Hallo criofter

's chiad bha mi trang fad air falbh aig obair agam an diugh (is that in correct Gaelic? Please let me know)
Firstly, Ive been at work all day and the pc is full of vuiruses as its never updated so Ive been eager to get home to respond. Why dont you point out where I make errors and correct them? I have stated previously that Im a learner (I said so in my previous response on the kitchen vocabulary thread and I have been lead ti believe that there is a word for oven very similar to river but spelled mh instead of bh.)

I intially posted in Gaelic as I had tried logic to no avail, and I would be happy to take constructive criticism on my sentence struchture.

Please give examples of where I could have put something better and I would be very happy to remember the tips and avpoid the same mistakes, but you have to use a language to learn it and that is what Im attempting to do. I am aware gthat there are tensions in the Gaelic community regarding how Gaelic is taught, but I have attemted to follow the rules of grammar that Ive learned so far and would rather get feedback how to write better than be told not to write in gaelic at all. Just my take on it. I would have responded when I first read this, but as I said, the pc I use at work is necver uopdated and Id rather not log on there (log a staech? Feumaidh mi ag ionssachadh barrachd) but I take great umbridge at certain people insinuating that I use an online translator. Ive been wiorking at Gaelic on my own using online resources such as the BBC and reaing Wikipedia. It was in fact me that began the article on Kenny macAskill on the gaelic Wikipedia and it is much more difficult to write in a langyuage than to read it or speak. I even try and avoid the tha mi ag... tense as Ive been dissuaded from using it by a Ldewis teacher who tells me itt is what he refers to as "English Gaelic" or book Gaelic"

Please correct bad Gaelic where its apparent, as I am genuinely trying to learn the language and promote it by using it correctly
(Feuch mi ri a cleachdadh Gàidhlig ceart neo nas fhearr ach toisich mi (tha mi a'toisich?) agus chan urrain dhoimh a'sgriobhadh 100 'sa cheud fhathast!) I would be happy to discover where I have went wrong with that sentence? Its supposed to read "Im trying (or try me: the tense Ive been urged to stick to by a lewis teacher I met recently and informed as to his dislike of the tha mi tense) to (ri?) use Gaelic correctly, but Im beginning (begin I, again the avoidance of tha mi...) and I cannot (ach chan urrainn dhoimh?) write 100 percent (100 in a 100?) yet/still"

Thank you

Ps, Im just off a bike after cycling home and Im aware that Ive misspelled above, but Im on a netbook in the dark (anns a dorcha?) and out of breath

I will find some examples and if you can show me how to phrase the better, I will be happy to learn that. You have to use a language to learn it and Gaelic needs to be used correctly, so it would be doing a servbice to the langage by setting me on the right path (air an doigh ceart?)

Ps, I havent learned the genetive (dative?) properly yet as my Lewis friend insists that I "forget grammar" and "absorb it instead". apparently that's not necessarilily the best way, but what do I know! Se oileneach a tha annam (is that wrong too?)

[SeamusAlba]

Originally Posted by tig

i think crofter may be aiming his point in the way of those who after reading some web page or online translation dictionary offer themselves up as experts on the language and then spout total nonsense on the subject.

you know who you are

Tig,it took me a while to relocate it, but I remebered saying the following when you enquired as to swear words:

15th January 2011, 14:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by tig View Post
thats fine mate...i did have a giggle at the yorkshire bit lol...i was gonna ask how you say ffs in gaelic

we did have an argument yes but i had no hatred towards you (or any other gael)

we can move along now...nothing to see here
I would just use "Obh obh!" (Oh goodness me!) but then Im a beginner in Gaelic lol. no worries = chan eil eagal "

end quote.

Its on the Gaelic thread attempting to discover whether Gaelic is actually banned here ("A bheil Gàidhlig fo thoirmisg an seo, though Im sure I've written that ungrammatically, but I of course never claimed to be an "expert".)

I have also said that Im a student on a number of occasions and never claimed to be an expert. I dont know how to say "straw man argument" in Gaelic as of yet tha eagal orm (unfortunately)



Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia