Crofter's comment about 'sheer abuse'

[Calum Mac Neill]

Crofter,

You replied very impressively on the 'gathering place' translation. The suggestion 'bothan' (bothy) didn't seem so much a translation to me as an alternative title approaching in meaning to 'drinking den' so I didn't mention it. I had considered 'taigh céilidh' (house of visiting) myself but decided to stick to a strictly literal translation. Of course, 'taigh céilidh' (house of visiting) is a far better Gaelic name for a house than 'àite cruinneachaidh' (place of gathering) or 'àite tionail' (place of assembly).

'Tigh' is the lovely, old spelling seen on many houses and I think that, by choosing 'tigh' over 'taigh', you've chosen a very suitable spelling here. 'Tigh Chéilidh' is usually a genitival or dative form, however. The usual nominative form is 'Tigh Céilidh'.

This section of the forum benefits hugely from your input. Yes, I would rather people who liked a phrase in English didn't ask for it to be translated into another language unless it is a comparatively simple and obvious English phrase, amenable to translation. However, so many English speakers are monolingual and have no awareness that they might be changing or weakening their statement or message on a gravestone if they get a phrase translated out of the language where the phrase really works into a language where the phrase leaves the reader with a degree of confusion as to what the exact implications or associations are.

I think your comments about "abuse, usually from those who do not have a clue" have some weight. They may not have a clue but they certainly may have a particular kind of attitude to Gaelic. I see particular members leaving similar kinds of messages on separate threads, requesting explanations of motivation from people asking for Gaelic translations of one kind or another. The attitude behind this is apparently that it doesn't seem to make sense for non-Gaelic speakers to make such requests as they do not speak the language and are not learning to speak it.

I would consider this repeated behaviour to be mean-spirited harrassment of all such requests for Gaelic translations. I notice that neither Gaels nor Gaelic learners customarily ask for explanations for an enquiry when requests are made for information relating to Lowland 'Scots'. While a Gaelic speaker might make a request for explanation as to motivations for desiring a Gaelic translation, I suspect that most such requests are being made by non-Gaelic speakers, including Anglophone so-called 'Scots', who do not seem to ask for a reason for the enquiry when similar requests are made for information in relation to Anglo-Scots.

If I am right, this might be evidence of culturally deep-seated antipathy to Gaelic related to the Anglophone 'Scot' linguistic community. I wonder whether this should be an issue for moderators, as the phenomenon appears to me to be one of noteworthy negative behaviour displayed in situations which relate to a specific language, ie, Gaelic.

In certain cases, those making enquiries about Gaelic translations appear to me to indicate that they feel harrassed by such negative content. If this is a specific kind of harrassment which is being experienced exclusively when a forum member demonstrates an interest in acquiring a Scottish Gaelic translation, perhaps moderators who are not Anglophone 'Scots', or even those who are, might wish to apply some modicum of censure to those who are keen on confronting whoever might enquire about a Gaelic translation for any given phrase. I say 'confronting' but the enquirers concerned may find that 'discouraging' may also apply.

If partisan supporters of Anglophone 'Scots' have the run of the forum to harrass enquirers about Gaelic about the motivations behind their enquiries, Gaels have as much right to harrass enquirers about Anglo-Scots language. I find such a permissive scenario repugnant. I am relatively new to this forum but, upon arrival, I was shocked by moderators' apparent tolerance of such behaviour targeted at one group in relation to one language. Perhaps some moderator, whose motivations I could trust to be non-partisan, can confirm whether or not such requests for explanation of motivations are mostly directed at Gaelic-related enquiries.

Your description of such behaviour as 'sheer abuse' connects well with my view that any such targeting of Gaelic translation enquirers is extremely unwelcome and should not be allowed to continue on this forum uncensured as it seems to have done. Any specific harrassment applied exclusively to those enquiring about Gaelic phrases is quite anti-Scottish in nature.

Regards,


Calum

[Crofter]

Thank you for your kind remarks but I have to say that my contribution to this section of the forum pales in comparison with your own. I have to admit that it was not skill that made me choose the particular spellings in the posting referred to but my way of speaking the language. I know that different districts have different way of saying things, like area dialects etc, but I had no idea that there was an old and a new spelling method.

Your summation of the attitude taken by some on this forum who seem hell-bent on giving offence is spot on. There is a small minority who do seem to go out of their way to demean anyone with a genuine desire to acquire knowledge of some aspects of Scottish or Highland or Gaelic culture. They appear to be of the opinion that anything to do with life outside the Central Belt is beneath contempt, and anyone enquiring about such matters is unworthy of a voice on this forum.

Sometimes they use the term “we” in their responses to postings as if they were answering with the authority of the entire membership, or even the entire population of Scotland. Sometimes they revert to answering in what they regard as the Scots language, which, in many instances, as they write it, is nothing more than a lazy or badly spelt version of plain English. Sometimes they come across as world weary of being asked the same or similar questions, as if they were the only ones being asked and compelled to answer. All this gives them a sense of superiority amongst themselves. This becomes obvious when the usual few take up the thread once one of them starts it off.

If any member can not answer a query from another member, or feels the query unworthy of a response, he/she is not obliged to respond to the posting. Responding with insults and abuse can only serve to highlight ignorance, not to mention sheer bad manners. Responding with demands for an explanation of the reasons for the query is bordering on interference with freedom of speech. “Don’t ask anything that we do not consider appropriate for you to ask” or “We’ll tell you what to ask”.

Perhaps they could have a section of their own where they could wallow and regale each other with their collective expertise and brilliant observations.
In any event, any member, or prospective member, should take comfort from the fact that there are a few, like your good self, who take the trouble to answer their enquiries with a genuine and helpful reply.

I waited for some time before replying to your posting in the hope that moderators and/or others might respond to the points you directed at them. Their silence speaks volumes. They appear to be unable or unwilling to express intolerance of the behaviour that you have so eloquently described. Usually they are in there with their jibes before you can get your finger off the enter button.

Regards,

Crofter

[ANDY-J3]

Calum Mac Neill,
Given that there are no monoglot Gaelic speakers in Scotland all Scots are of course Anglophone. No one speaks Gaelic as their primary language anymore hence it is hardly tenable for you to try and make a distinction that has no basis in fact and is purely a reflection of your own prejudices.

[JCfromGA]

A primary language is the first language learned by a child in the home. So, do the people who do speak Gaelic not teach their children at home? If a child learns Gaelic in the home, then that is their primary language... This does not matter if English is learned in school or at an early age. I would be very surprised to learn that there were no children in Scotland who were not L1(first language) Gaelic with an L2 acquisition into English... I mean there are children, here in the US, who learn Gaelic in the home... and then transition into English in preschool or kindergarten because parents want to ensure that the child speaks Gaelic.

[ANDY-J3]

What I've stated above isn't my subjective opinion - it is a statement I took from the preface to a Gaelic language book, written by a Gaelic speaker which was intended to help promote interest in learning Gaelic. No one in Scotland has a more extensive knowledge of Gaelic than they have of English which means that all Scots are Anglophones although some of them happen to also speak Gaelic. The only Gaelic speaker I know did only speak Gaelic as a child however he now uses English almost exclusively. When he converses with fellow Gaelic speakers he uses a mixture of English and Gaelic as his knowledge of Gaelic has diminished over time through lack of use.

[Calum Mac Neill]

ANDY-J3, you use the word 'prejudices'. Prejudice implies that I am not adequately informed about Scottish culture and therefore I reject your assertion that I am prejudiced. I see that you again resort to making personal comments in your replies. There is no quote from a book that can justify that, nor justify any desire on the part of Anglophone 'Scots' to subsume a threatening Gaeldom into the Anglophone world and thereby extinguish Gaelic culture.

As Crofter says, "Responding with insults and abuse can only serve to highlight ignorance, not to mention sheer bad manners." I suggest you quit your habit of remarking on people and start limiting your comments to dealing with the content of people's arguments.

You don't note the additional implication which I attempt to impart in writing when I use inverted commas in the phrase "Anglophone 'Scots' ". Some will recognise the import of the inverted commas - some, such as yourself, will not. The implication of such inverted commas is that the writer realizes that a word is not being used in its current commonly accepted sense. The hint I am dropping via the inverted commas is that Anglophone 'Scots' are only so-called Scots who can't hold a conversation in Gaelic, nor even pronounce the names of most of the hills on a Scottish map accurately, therefore a Gaelic speaker is excluded from the Anglophone 'Scot' community de facto.

Besides, my terms of reference for 'community' extend beyond the present into the past, so that the Anglophone 'Scot' community is placed in juxtaposition against a Gadelophone community which for centuries certainly did include monoglot Gaelic speakers.

This discussion of monoglot Anglophone 'Scot' behaviour should not be sidetracked into pedantry over what areas certain words may or may not be covered by phrases used by me such as "non-Gaelic speakers, including Anglophone so-called 'Scots' ". Your own use of personal comments is typical of the psychological aggression of Anglophone 'Scots' against the Gaelic language and any support given it and is proof, not of any prejudice on my part against Anglophone 'Scots', but of Anglophone 'Scot' antipathy against any who dare to comment on such antipathy from Anglophone 'Scots'. In fact, you only bolster the argument being made here by myself and Crofter concerning the origin of the lack of respect given on this part of the forum to those interested in anything Gaelic.

Such antipathy is not pro-Scottish - it is the ruin of Scottishness.

[JCfromGA]

That's not what I was talking about. I'm a polylingual speech language pathologist. A primary language is not a language that is used most... but which language was learned FIRST. So, to say that Gaelic isn't a primary language for many people cannot be true. If they learn Gaelic FIRST.. that is their primary language. The language used in secondary language acquisition is the secondary language.

You can read it if you're so inclined The Neurolinguistic Theory of Bilingualism by Michel Paradis. He is THE researcher in bilingualism. Evidence based research as opposed to someone throwing words around that they're not using correctly to support their ideals.

That said... I have no doubt that most Gaelic speakers use English more often... that was never my argument.