Project on "Glaswegian as a language"

[Herbie]

Hello!

I'm working on a small project on language vs. dialect and am discussing whether Glaswegian meets the standards for being a separate language from Standard English or not by comparing the relation between Glaswegian and English with the relation between Norwegian and Danish.

Personally (as a 'Nordic-speaker'), before having studied this in details, I don't see the difference between Norwegian and Danish much or even bigger than the one between Glaswegian and Standard English considering the use of vocabulary, grammar, tone etc.

As I am not from Scotland I would like to hear what you have to say about this topic.

- Do you find the pronunciations and sounds of the Glaswegian dialect so different from Standard English that it could be a separate language?

- Do you similarly find the use of vocabulary, grammar and structure of sentences very different from Standard English?

- Do you think that Glaswegian is OK to be a dialect and not a language under these conditions?

- Has this topic, or any similar topics, been discussed before in public or do people in Glasgow feel this to be an issue at all?

Thanks for your time.
- Herbie

[Scotsgait]

Originally Posted by Herbie

Hello!

I'm working on a small project on language vs. dialect and am discussing whether Glaswegian meets the standards for being a separate language from Standard English or not by comparing the relation between Glaswegian and English with the relation between Norwegian and Danish.

Personally (as a 'Nordic-speaker'), before having studied this in details, I don't see the difference between Norwegian and Danish much or even bigger than the one between Glaswegian and Standard English considering the use of vocabulary, grammar, tone etc.

As I am not from Scotland I would like to hear what you have to say about this topic.

- Do you find the pronunciations and sounds of the Glaswegian dialect so different from Standard English that it could be a separate language?

- Do you similarly find the use of vocabulary, grammar and structure of sentences very different from Standard English?

- Do you think that Glaswegian is OK to be a dialect and not a language under these conditions?

- Has this topic, or any similar topics, been discussed before in public or do people in Glasgow feel this to be an issue at all?

Thanks for your time.
- Herbie

Scots is a different language from English. "Glaswegian" (if it exists) would most likely be a dialect of the Scots language.

[Herbie]

Originally Posted by Scotsgait

Scots is a different language from English. "Glaswegian" (if it exists) would most likely be a dialect of the Scots language.

I understood English to be the official language... is Scots then a collection of various dialects within Scotland? Are all of them included? Are dialects within Scotland never considered as dialects of English as the "language" is quite similar to English?

Anyhow, my project is for linguistic purposes to explore the boundaries between language and dialect. So maybe my topic is still valid?

[Scotsgait]

Originally Posted by Herbie

I understood English to be the official language... is Scots then a collection of various dialects within Scotland? Are all of them included? Are dialects within Scotland never considered as dialects of English as the "language" is quite similar to English?

Anyhow, my project is for linguistic purposes to explore the boundaries between language and dialect. So maybe my topic is still valid?

Scots is as much a dialect of English as English is a dialect of Scots. It is a language in its own right and, like Gaelic, is protected under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. You'll find out more about it from the Scots Language Society.

[Crofter]

Scots, the language, is what Lowland Scottish people claim to be their official language.

I am not sure whether it is used there on a regular basis. If Burns wrote in Scots then anyone with a command of English could follow it, apart from the odd word thrown in to confuse the Teuchters.

In the Highlands there are some districts where the road signs are in Gailic and English. In Wales they have them in Welsh and English. Can't say I've seen many Scots signs on the A9

It could be like the Latin, only posh people and priests use it.

As for Glaswegian, you need to have been born in the vicinity of a distillery, or to have consumed large quantities of its contents, then it all makes sence, the more you have the clearer it gets. I believe every sentence begins with "See Yooo" There are over twenty variations of emphasis on this phrase. This is what makes it unique.

It worries me that the European Union are getting involved, we could wake up one day and they will have put a quota on it.

Regards,
Crofter

[Scotsgait]

Originally Posted by Crofter

Scots, the language, is what Lowland Scottish people claim to be their official language.

I am not sure whether it is used there on a regular basis. If Burns wrote in Scots then anyone with a command of English could follow it, apart from the odd word thrown in to confuse the Teuchters.

The OP had a serious point to make. I shall presume your post was an attempt at humour rather than a display of ignorance.

[Gearoid]

Originally Posted by Herbie

Hello!

I'm working on a small project on language vs. dialect and am discussing whether Glaswegian meets the standards for being a separate language from Standard English or not by comparing the relation between Glaswegian and English with the relation between Norwegian and Danish.

Personally (as a 'Nordic-speaker'), before having studied this in details, I don't see the difference between Norwegian and Danish much or even bigger than the one between Glaswegian and Standard English considering the use of vocabulary, grammar, tone etc.

As I am not from Scotland I would like to hear what you have to say about this topic.

- Do you find the pronunciations and sounds of the Glaswegian dialect so different from Standard English that it could be a separate language?

- Do you similarly find the use of vocabulary, grammar and structure of sentences very different from Standard English?

- Do you think that Glaswegian is OK to be a dialect and not a language under these conditions?

- Has this topic, or any similar topics, been discussed before in public or do people in Glasgow feel this to be an issue at all?

Thanks for your time.
- Herbie

I am going to get a little pedantic here but beg your patience. I will get to the point of the questions you have asked but first I would like to put the following forward to illustrate that any such questions are loaded from the start.

To answer your question first we would have to ask a few other questions.
What criteria would be considered necessary for a form of speech to meet for it to be deemed a language?
More importantly, who deems what the criteria to be met should be? And are those criteria coloured by cultural chuavinism or linguistic ethnocentricity?
The proposed criteria should also be subject to analysis of purpose and open to question and so it’s a kind of circular argument.

One would also have to question the claim that the language that the other is being compared to has a valid claim to be considered a language as well. It could be argued ,convincingly, that English is a potpourri of various dialects from several language branches itself and that it would be valid to question by what right it can be held up as the one that other speech-forms of the region(s) should be measured against.

Languages that dominate tend to be spoken by populations as a consequence of the outcomes of historical wars and economic influence (and not so historical if we observe the palpable change to English as a result of comparatively recent American economic domination) in much the same way as a country may claim one particular branch of religious belief as 'national and the others to be lesser religions.

Language is an ever-evolving, living, organism .You just have to watch a film from 25 years ago to see how quickly it changes shape. Culture, conflicts, politics and economics all combine to re-shape it time and again.
Back to the main question. I believe a reasonable argument could be put forward to say that Glaswegian is a language. It has (as English does) several other influences and lends heavily from them. Nordic-Germanic, Doric, Latin, Gaelic and English are the more obvious of those influences on Glaswegian.


Whoever would argue that this does not make it a language would then also have to entertain the notion that there is no such thing as, for example, the Spanish, Italian or French languages,just dialects of Latin.
So by this definition a language is a dialect that is in general use over a significant time period.
I would argue we have just described Glaswegian.

Linguistic snobbery plays a part here as well. Catalan is a great case study on this aspect of the question. Just 25 years ago those who spoke Catalan were looked upon not only with suspicion as latent trouble-making nationalists but also as un-cultured, un-educated and 'de pueblo'- of village mentality-.
However an inspired campaign for regional/national identity using the Catalan language as its spearhead has seen a 360 degree change in attitudes and the language is now a thing of pride and has become the norm.
Even in Glasgow those that speak Glaswegian in its purest form are deemed to speak badly and are assumed to be intellectually and /or culturally inferior to those whose use of language approximates ' standard' English.
I could mix it with the best of them in deepest east-end of Glasgow and hold my own with the broadest of speakers and feel inferior intellectually or culturally to no English speaker by virtue of being able to do so.
Some of the most passionate political arguments have been conveyed to me in Glaswegian with a prose that English would have struggled to match, despite its own richness.

I actually came here to ask for the pronunciation for a Gaelic song when I saw your post and felt compelled to answer it. I will start another post regards the song next time I'm on.
Unfortunately I don’t have time to go into other points I would like to make about the subject but I leave you with this little ditty

A hivnae a care aboot hoo ye declair
Yer thoats an’ whur ye may stuan
oan the 'gers an’ the 'tic ,
or the boady politic
wit metters is we baith unnerstuan

Is mise Gearóid