Scots Dialect : Where is it spoken ?

[Scottish_Republican]

"just the fact that it had at one time been a Brythonic kingdom"

Really, I'd never have known.

" In northern England where there was no period of Gaelic habitation at all"

Untrue. Gaels settled in north west England, and parts of Wales as well. This is recorded in Welsh texts. There were two waves of settlement involved in that region - first, very minor Irish settlement, and then secondly, Norse Gaels from Dublin and the Isle of Man.

Besides which, as I have continuously pointed out, the Anglo-Normans and their henchmen were given far more power. They too were very few in number. But they used their scribes for nefarious purposes, e.g. seizing land, by writing title deeds for themselves where none had existed previously, so they could steal it. It is believed that the notes in the Book of Deer may have been an attempt to counter this land grab.

Kern is completely wrong about Old English. Early Middle English was spoken over a wider area, proper Anglo-Saxon, no.

[Croi Sasanach]

Well i think 'that' (forth and clyde down to morecambe bay and the tees)whole area was a real mishmash of everything during that period, for someone to claim this bit was all of that and that bit had no of that is trying to snatch crumbs and is basically talking out their backside.

Gaelic was spoken just over the border in Dumfries and the like, so it definately must have been spoken in at least north Cumbria and probably beyond.

Brythonic languages were spoken in Cumbria quite late and i think written testaments can take it as late as 800 so you can probably add a bit onto that, because i would assume it would have continued in speech for quite a bit longer.

Plus haven't biologists who trace gene markers found out that we mostly come from the same ancestors, the hunter gatherers who gradually jumped from language to language ?

[ANDY-J3]

Until the 10th century Northumbria was the dominant Kingdom in England - more powerful than Wessex or Mercia and it controlled the north of England to such an extent that Anglian culture and language became firmly established- never at any time was there Gaelic encroachment into Northumbrian territory and Brythonic ceased to be spoken there by the eighth century. Only when that power diminished in the late 10th century was sovereignty over the northern parts of its territory ceded and then only on condition that Anglian customs and language remain in use. The territory of the Lothians wasn't annexed by the Scottish crown until the battle of Carham in 1018 and it was shortly after that that the practice of adopting Anglo-Norman customs became established. Those are the facts and they show me that Gaelic couldn't at any time have been in widespread usage in the Lothians.

[Scottish_Republican]

Gaelic culture HAD penetrated Northumbria, Andy. One of its kings was a Gaelic language poet.

"Brythonic ceased to be spoken there by the eighth century"

Rubbish. Brythonic was being spoken in Cumbria in the 1200s. Do you expect me to believe it died four hundred years earlier in Northumbria? With the late Brythonic placenames?

This is a case of the Teutonic Knights riding again - surely all of Britain was Aryan, sorry Germanic, at an early stage.

[ANDY-J3]

Scottish Republican
The only thing that's rubbish is your knowledge of geography-Cumbria isn't Northumbria. The area of modern Cumbria was a Brythonic kingdom called Rheged so what language do you expect they would have spoken? I never even mentioned Cumbria and I'm well aware that its linguistic and cultural heritage is different from that of the Lothians and it is specifically the Lothians and their Anglo-Saxon heritage I was discussing. Your grasp of history isn't much better- the presence of Gaelic speaking royalty in Northumbria- Oswald, Aldfrith etc.- is due solely to the fact that Northumbrian heirs were sent to Dalriada to keep them out of harms way which was a common practice in the dark ages amongst all of the various north British kingdoms. In fact the only reason I'm debating this point is to rubbish the idea that there existed some Gaelic golden age when everyone in Scotland spoke the one "true" Scottish language. I'm only interested in establishing historical facts- I'd be as assiduous in challenging any "Teutonic" fantasist who wanted to rewrite Scottish history to conform to their own agenda. I'm one step ahead of you- I'm well aware that you're cobbling together tiny scraps of circumstantial evidence from place names etc. and desperately trying to manufacture them into compelling evidence to support the idea that Gaels and their culture once dominated the whole of Scotland and even northern England- you might convince some people but I prefer to deal in historical realities.

[Kern]

Lets stop the Teutons riding all over us.

Lets also stop this Irish stuff from coming on here. We the Scots were not all Irish. Nor all Gaelic.

Gaelic was never spoken all over Scotland. Pictish was a large part of what was spoken.

Admit it Scottish Republican. You are an IRISH troll.

[Kern]

Originally Posted by Croi Sasanach

Plus haven't biologists who trace gene markers found out that we mostly come from the same ancestors, the hunter gatherers who gradually jumped from language to language ?

Yes - he / she was called Neolithic man from the Caucasus.