The English and Scottish People

[gustard]

Whats all this about people in the north of England not saying they aren't English ? That is Bolloc~@:s with a capitla B. What are they allegiadly saying they are ? We're not English we're northeners ? Mancs, Geordies ? Scousers ? How rediculous iv eheard nothing of it. In actual fact they are probably descended from the norse which would explain their psycopathic antics in the school playground.
Britain incidently is an ancient celtic name which originates long before the germans and danes (ie English) got here.
As for Cornawall well "free Kernow now " I say , they were always a seperate nation before the saxons absorbed them anyway. Anyway the English are just a bunch of German invaders aren't they ?

Intersestingly enough there wer eblack people in London before there were English - roman traders

[TheScottishEconomist]

Originally Posted by SherbrookeJacobite

There was strong prejudice in the 'civilized' Lowland areas against the 'uncivilized' Highlanders - which contributed to government policy which persecuted Highlanders. That is certainly not the fault of modern Lowland Scots - who are basically indistinguishable from modern Highland Scots (many Lowland Scots have Highland roots).

Indeed, and Glasgow in particular which because of it's pre-eminence as an industrial city was the destination for many Highland lads and lassies, and as the word 'teuchter' was mentioned earlier (and it is a word I am not familiar with) I can now link the two together in another kind of link:

The Hielanman's Umbrella And The Teuchter Trail

And another one:

The Gaels and Glasgow

However while googling a found a few other related things of interest:


The Scotsman, 20 January 1847
Will you allow me to make another suggestion through your paper! It is that a short pamphlet in the Gaelic language should be prepared and extensively circulated among the Highland population, denouncing in stern terms the indolent habits that prevail among them - contrasting the steady industry of the Saxon with the scarcely occasional labour of the Celt - tracing the consequence of this in the respective conditions at present of the Lowlander and the Highlander - enforcing the necessity of their working regularly throughout the year, and if they cannot find employment where they are, of migrating elsewhere in search of it - and giving a hint, that unless they do so, they cannot expect to be again compassionated and relieved.

Fifeshire Journal, 23 September 1847
... charity, like all former charities given to the Highlandmen, and like all alms bestowed on the undeserving, has just served to plunge them more and more into demoralisation and wretchedness, to make their wants greater and their clamours louder and more impudent. It is not more notorious that the sons of Ethiopia are black, than it is to all who know them, that Highlandmen will not work if they can get their meat by any other means … It is an utter misapprehension of their true character to think that they do not like to live on charity. They like, and have always liked to get alms since the time they found it inconvenient to live on plunder …

The destitution of the Highlanders is the natural and legitimate fruit of their national vices … there is abundant proof that laziness is the darling sin which the Highlandman cherishes amidst all his imagined piety and morality.

Fifeshire Journal, 11 September 1851
Ethnologically the Celtic race is an inferior one, and attempt to disguise it as we may, there is naturally and rationally no getting rid of the great cosmical fact that it is destined to give way - slowly and painfully it may be, but still most certainly - before the higher capabilities of the Anglo-Saxon. In the meantime, and apparently as a part of the natural law which had already pushed the Celt from continental Europe westward, emigration to America is the only available remedy for the miseries of the race, whether squatting listlessly in filth and rags in Ireland, or dreaming in idleness and poverty in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland.

Strong prejudice indeed.

[Tartan Paint]

Originally Posted by SherbrookeJacobite

The term was applied to people from the lowlands long before Culloden.

Sources please and how long before?

[Tartan Paint]

Originally Posted by SherbrookeJacobite

You really need to check your history books - the cultural and linguistic split between the Highlands and Lowlands happened long before the Jacobite risings. And you are the one who keeps dragging up Culloden in this discussion. Lianachan never mentioned it, except it was mentioned in the article he linked as a factor in the end of the Clan system (which it was). There was strong prejudice in the 'civilized' Lowland areas against the 'uncivilized' Highlanders - which contributed to government policy which persecuted Highlanders. That is certainly not the fault of modern Lowland Scots - who are basically indistinguishable from modern Highland Scots (many Lowland Scots have Highland roots).

It was the "Saxon origin" part in the article that i am questioning. That doesn't infer anything "linguistic" to me. I'm not getting hot under the collar, i'm certainly not insulting anyone like you seem to think i am, and i'm not arguing with anyone that it may have been used. I just what to know WHEN from.

[Tartan Paint]

Originally Posted by SherbrookeJacobite

And, since you brought it up - it is not true that 80% of the Hanoverian troops were Scots. There were 12 English Battalions, a Battalion of Clan Campbell, A militia made up of mixed Clans (led, I believe by Campbells), a Battalion from Clan Munroe, 3 battalions of Lowland Scots, and 3 Regiments of Horse.

It is also estimated that in addition to the Highlanders, French and Irish in the Jacobite Army - approximately 25% of the force was from the Lowlands.

Thanks for the details. I don't have all the facts and figures all i do know is it was a British civil war and not Sco v Eng. I know plenty of Campbells and it's not hard to imagine that they would have been in the thick of it.

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

It was the "Saxon origin" part in the article that i am questioning. That doesn't infer anything "linguistic" to me. I'm not getting hot under the collar, i'm certainly not insulting anyone like you seem to think i am, and i'm not arguing with anyone that it may have been used. I just what to know WHEN from.

You have suggested (and as far as I'm aware it's the first time anybody anywhere has suggested it....) that the word "sassenach" started to be applied to Lowland Scots (by Highlanders) after the battle of culloden. This extraordinary hypothesis would require extraordinary proof. Since it's you that's suggesting it, the burden of proof lies with you.

[Tartan Paint]

Originally Posted by Lianachan

You have suggested (and as far as I'm aware it's the first time anybody anywhere has suggested it....) that the word "sassenach" started to be applied to Lowland Scots (by Highlanders) after the battle of culloden. This extraordinary hypothesis would require extraordinary proof. Since it's you that's suggesting it, the burden of proof lies with you.

Read my last post. "I'm not arguing that they may have used it". I didn't say they did use it. I would like to see sources with dates. The other poster is suggesting it may have been used to describe lowland English speakers. If that's the case, did Highland Gaelic speakers in the British army call the English speaking Scots troops who were on the same side, "sassenach"?