The English and Scottish People

[Tartan Paint]

Originally Posted by NovaBritannia

Anyway Tartan Paint, it isn't intended as a derogatory term from my understanding and I don't think it's simply a reference to the Jacobite Risings.

They cling onto this Romantic Jacobite Highlander tag and it's got to the stage now where we have Americans and Canadians coming over to my country, your country, where they set fire to Union Jacks at Culloden and take pictures to post on websites. To top it off, half of these North Americans are convinced they're more Scottish than you or i.

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

Yes it has. It's got everything to do with it. "Lowland" Scots inherited a 'Saxon ancestry' in 1746. Your article made that clear. All this despite the fact that no Saxon invasion was ever recorded and roughly 80% of the Government troops were Scots. Don't look for me to give you any reasons to "bother". I ask myself why you bother in the first place. It's part of Celtic culture to repeat nonsense like this over and over and over again. It's time to let go of the past. I know it's a cliche but harping on about Culloden doesn't achieve anything.

Stop making assumptions! I have repeatedly explained that the only point I've been making is that the term "Sassenach" is also used, particularly in the past, by Highlanders to describe Lowland Scots. This is a fact, and I simply stated it as such without making any political or offensive comments of any kind. You are the one who mentioned Culloden! The line in the link I provided that should have stood out, given the context of our chat, is Sassenach means 'of Saxon origin' and was applied equally to Lowland Scots as to the English. Who said anything about "Celtic culture"? I know I didn't. In fact, I've already posted tonight about how that doesn't exist in the first place, which I suppose is a fine example of the keen gift you have for second guessing me. My name may be Gaelic, and the location I give may be Gaelic - but how does that give you the right to repeatedly suggest I am pursuing some agenda or can't "let go of the past" and to post disparaging comments about Highlanders? It is blatantly transparent that if either of us has some agenda to push here, then it's you.

[Tartan Paint]

Originally Posted by Lianachan

Stop making assumptions! I have repeatedly explained that the only point I've been making is that the term "Sassenach" is also used, particularly in the past, by Highlanders to describe Lowland Scots. This is a fact, and I simply stated it as such without making any political or offensive comments of any kind. You are the one who mentioned Culloden! The line in the link I provided that should have stood out, given the context of our chat, is Sassenach means 'of Saxon origin' and was applied equally to Lowland Scots as to the English. Who said anything about "Celtic culture"? I know I didn't. In fact, I've already posted tonight about how that doesn't exist in the first place, which I suppose is a fine example of the keen gift you have for second guessing me. My name may be Gaelic, and the location I give may be Gaelic - but how does that give you the right to repeatedly suggest I am pursuing some agenda or can't "let go of the past" and to post disparaging comments about Highlanders? It is blatantly transparent that if either of us has some agenda to push here, then it's you.

You see, if the article hadn't stated this "fact" straight after mentioning Culloden, i might have believed you. I'm still waiting to hear if this term was applied to "Lowland" Scots prior to 1746.


edit: the article you posted, the very first line mentions "Celtic". I never brought it up.

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

You see, if the article hadn't stated this "fact" straight after mentioning Culloden, i might have believed you. I'm still waiting to hear if this term was applied to "Lowland" Scots prior to 1746.

That's still a connection that you have made. I have no desire to enter into a political debate. "Sassenach" has been, and sometimes still is, used to describe Lowland Scots. That's a fact, and is the only point I was making. Interpret that how you will, and feel free to do your own research. I'll give you a starter, though, and say that according to the OED the first known written use of the word (that's at all, let alone to Lowland Scots) was in 1771. Go from there.

[Tartan Paint]

Originally Posted by Lianachan

That's still a connection that you have made. I have no desire to enter into a political debate. "Sassenach" has been, and sometimes still is, used to describe Lowland Scots. That's a fact, and is the only point I was making. Interpret that how you will, and feel free to do your own research. I'll give you a starter, though, and say that according to the OED the first known written use of the word (that's at all, let alone to Lowland Scots) was in 1771. Go from there.

Hey, the article you posted implies that Lowland Scots have "Saxon origins". When you post things like that you should be prepared for it to be questioned. I've told you that this was an 18th century invention. You don't just inherit origins overnight. Lies must be confronted, if you don't like it don't spread them.

[Lianachan]

Hmm, a brief spot of research suggests that the word was used in the Highlands more to mean "outsider", or "outlander" than anybody of particularly Saxon stock. I may delve quite deeply into this, actually. But not at 2 in the morning.....

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

Hey, the article you posted implies that Lowland Scots have "Saxon origins". When you post things like that you should be prepared for it to be questioned. I've told you that this was an 18th century invention. You don't just inherit origins overnight. Lies must be confronted, if you don't like it don't spread them.

You mean that's what you inferred. You've not told me it's an 18C invention, you've told me you think it's an 18th century invention. I don't care whether it is or not, although I strongly suspect it's not - words aren't just invented on the spur of the moment, and that would certainly be a strange word to create for the purposes you seem to be suggesting it was created. I'll say this one last time, since it doesn't seem to be sinking in. My only point is that the term has been/is used to describe Lowland Scots. I don't care why. If you care that much about why, then you go and find out. But there's no need for the accusations of agenda pushing, and down right insults, you've levelled at me. Without those, you would have found me considerably more helpful.