The English and Scottish People

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

I'm not contradicting myself at all. I can speak Gaelic, i can't write it so the spelling might be off. Saxon was the dominant culture in England. Sassenach literally means Saxon man, unless you can tell me any different? I can't see any reason why any Englishman would find that at all offensive. My grandmother taught me how to speak it and oddly enough about the only word i don't remember her ever saying was Sassenach. Ironically, it's about the only word most Scots know. Don't believe everything a "highlander" tells you either, that's my motto. Apart from the "my heart is in the highlands" type highlander, is there really such a thing anyway? Bless 'em, they mean well. So did they regard people from the Southern Uplands Sassenachs as well, even though they weren't "lowlanders" as such, as they didn't live in the Lowlands? It's getting confusing here. I think if you look you'll find this was another one of those magical 18/19th century creations.








You called me an Englishman. I reserve the right to act as i see fit



edit: The only time i would maybe concede that people from the lowlands were rightly called "Sassenachs" would have been when the Northumbrian kingdom stretched into modern day Scotland. The border was forever changing but the Borders aren't in the Lowlands. I think that's where the confusion is. "Lowlander" is not an accurate word to use and only causes confusion.

1. I am a highlander. I also know a bit about the language, culture and history of the highlands - having been reading and writing about them for years. I can't say I care much for your continuing patronising attitude either. "Bless 'em" indeed.

2. Sassenach has been used for centuries (by highlanders) to describe lowland Scots as well as English people. Not so much these days, although I do still hear it used that way.

3. I have no agenda here, I am entirely objective about this matter. I was merely adding a bit of information to your post.

4. I never called you English. I never called anybody anything. All I did was say that the term "Sassenach" has been used to describe lowland Scots as well as English people.

5. There is no "confusion". Whether you choose to believe it or not, the word has been used in the way I've described. Seehere for a source you probably should trust.

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by NovaBritannia

But yes, Sassenach is used by Tcheucters to describe people from the lowlands.

Tcheucters? Lowland for Highlanders, is it? If so, it means something else up here.

[Tartan Paint]

Originally Posted by Lianachan

1. I am a highlander. I also know a bit about the language, culture and history of the highlands - having been reading and writing about them for years. I can't say I care much for your continuing patronising attitude either. "Bless 'em" indeed.

2. Sassenach has been used for centuries (by highlanders) to describe lowland Scots as well as English people. Not so much these days, although I do still hear it used that way.

3. I have no agenda here, I am entirely objective about this matter. I was merely adding a bit of information to your post.

4. I never called you English. I never called anybody anything. All I did was say that the term "Sassenach" has been used to describe lowland Scots as well as English people.

5. There is no "confusion". Whether you choose to believe it or not, the word has been used in the way I've described. Seehere for a source you probably should trust.

Well it's intended as a derogatory term then. The part i have trouble with is "Sassenach has been used for centuries to decribe Lowland Scots". Which centuries? And i apologise if you feel i have been patronising but i felt the same when you at me suggesting that you knew exactly what you were saying. The only date i see in the link you provided is (would you believe it) 1746. "The Jacobite rising". That's the agenda i was talking about. It always seems to crop up. It's a derogatory name given to "lowlanders" because they fought for the "English crown" at Culloden. But so did plenty of Highlanders so be more specific. You mean defeated Highlanders. The only difference between us mere Sassenachs and you Real Scots that day was your English buddies didn't turn up.

[NovaBritannia]

Originally Posted by Lianachan

Tcheucters? Lowland for Highlanders, is it? If so, it means something else up here.

What does it mean up there? Where I'm from it's a slightly derogatory term for Highlanders (although anyone north of Stirling is liable to be labeled so) with allusions to farming and such. I have no idea where it comes from.

Anyway Tartan Paint, it isn't intended as a derogatory term from my understanding and I don't think it's simply a reference to the Jacobite Risings.

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

Well it's intended as a derogatory term then. The part i have trouble with is "Sassenach has been used for centuries to decribe Lowland Scots". Which centuries? And i apologise if you feel i have been patronising but i felt the same when you at me suggesting that you knew exactly what you were saying. The only date i see in the link you provided is (would you believe it) 1746. "The Jacobite rising". That's the agenda i was talking about. It always seems to crop up. It's a derogatory name given to "lowlanders" because they fought for the "English crown" at Culloden. But so did plenty of Highlanders so be more specific. You mean defeated Highlanders. The only difference between us mere Sassenachs and you Real Scots that day was your English buddies didn't turn up.

If I'd known a single, simple and factual statement was going to instigate a pointless debate then believe me, I wouldn't have bothered.

So, if a Highlander calls a Lowlander a Sassenach then that's intended as a derogaroty term, but it's ok for a Lowlander (or, I assume, Highlander) to call an Englishman that because it's not derogatory? This has absolutely nothing to do with the Jacobite Rebellions, and purile statments like The only difference between us mere Sassenachs and you Real Scots that day was your English buddies didn't turn up reveal your own agenda, and disincline me to continue any form of discussion with you. At no stage have I insulted you, or become political - my only point has been the linguistic one I have made repeatedly - and yet you continue to make implications and level accusations and insults at me at every turn. Why, pray tell, should I bother?

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by NovaBritannia

What does it mean up there? Where I'm from it's a slightly derogatory term for Highlanders (although anyone north of Stirling is liable to be labeled so) with allusions to farming and such. I have no idea where it comes from.

Pretty much the same thing here, then, except it tends to get applied to the more northern and western parts - the areas where you can hear Highland English being spoken. I suppose it's similar to the accusations of sheep molesting - you know, somebody in England may say that the Welsh are too fond of their sheep, but somebody in Wales is a bit more geographicaly precise in the use of such a label. Perhaps, if you follow the trail asking people, you might actually find a real Tcheuctar. Whatever that is.

Originally Posted by NovaBritannia

Anyway Tartan Paint, it isn't intended as a derogatory term from my understanding and I don't think it's simply a reference to the Jacobite Risings.

Perhaps he'll listen to/trust you. I am only, after all, a Highlander - and one should never beleive everything I say. Bless me.

[Tartan Paint]

Originally Posted by Lianachan

If I'd known a single, simple and factual statement was going to instigate a pointless debate then believe me, I wouldn't have bothered.

So, if a Highlander calls a Lowlander a Sassenach then that's intended as a derogaroty term, but it's ok for a Lowlander (or, I assume, Highlander) to call an Englishman that because it's not derogatory? This has absolutely nothing to do with the Jacobite Rebellions, and purile statments like The only difference between us mere Sassenachs and you Real Scots that day was your English buddies didn't turn up reveal your own agenda, and disincline me to continue any form of discussion with you. At no stage have I insulted you, or become political - my only point has been the linguistic one I have made repeatedly - and yet you continue to make implications and level accusations and insults at me at every turn. Why, pray tell, should I bother?

Yes it has. It's got everything to do with it. "Lowland" Scots inherited a 'Saxon ancestry' in 1746. Your article made that clear. All this despite the fact that no Saxon invasion was ever recorded and roughly 80% of the Government troops were Scots. Don't look for me to give you any reasons to "bother". I ask myself why you bother in the first place. It's part of Celtic culture to repeat nonsense like this over and over and over again. It's time to let go of the past. I know it's a cliche but harping on about Culloden doesn't achieve anything.