The English and Scottish People

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

Well i hope you feel better having got it off your chest. An Englishman once called me a "racist jock bigot" for using the word "Sassenach" which means Englishman. When i told him what it meant he was humble and was man enough to apologise. "Sorry i'm never sure what you Jocks are talking about". I don't believe he was a racist bigot as i honestly believe he didn't realise he was being offensive. But somewhere further down his family tree i suspect things might have been a wee bit different.

The term Sassenach was traditionally applied to Lowland Scots too.

[Tartan Paint]

Talking to myself that's the first signs of madness...lol. I hope he/she didn't take me the wrong way.


Lianachan, I'm fully aware that some people have agendas and like to make out that highland Scots are the "real" Scots and that lowland Scots aren't Scots at all. You obviously feel at ease offending 80% of the population. Go you You'll be telling me next that when Welsh people talk about Saesnegs they're talking about people from Edinburgh.

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

Lianachan, I'm fully aware that some people have agendas and like to make out that highland Scots are the "real" Scots and that lowland Scots aren't Scots at all. You obviously feel at ease offending 80% of the population. Go you You'll be telling me next that when Welsh people talk about Saesnegs they're talking about people from Edinburgh.

What agenda? What the hell are you blathering about, and dishing out assumptions and insults for? I accurately described a historical use of the word, and that's all.

*edit* Oh yes, and if you feel it's an offensive term then how come you're free to use it to Englishmen?

[Tartan Paint]

"Traditionally applied to lowland Scots too". By whom exactly? Sassun = England, Sassenach = Englishman. It's similar in Welsh and Irish. Can you speak Gaelic? I can and i didn't learn it with the aid of a tape recorder. It comes from "Saxon". Was William Wallace a Sassenach?

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

"Traditionally applied to lowland Scots too". By whom exactly?

Highlanders

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

Sassun = England, Sassenach = Englishman.

No, it's from "Saxon".

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

It's similar in Welsh and Irish.

It is indeed. It's from Saxon there too.

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

Can you speak Gaelic? I can and i didn't learn it with the aid of a tape recorder.

Not fluently, it's the history of the language and placenames that are my main Gaelic interests. Glad you do though, I wish more people did. I intend to become fluent one day.

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

It comes from "Saxon".

Sure does, but that contradicts what you said earlier in the same post.

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

Was William Wallace a Sassenach?

By the old Highland definition, yes.

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

Must you be so condescending and insulting?

[Tartan Paint]

I'm not contradicting myself at all. I can speak Gaelic, i can't write it so the spelling might be off. Saxon was the dominant culture in England. Sassenach literally means Saxon man, unless you can tell me any different? I can't see any reason why any Englishman would find that at all offensive. My grandmother taught me how to speak it and oddly enough about the only word i don't remember her ever saying was Sassenach. Ironically, it's about the only word most Scots know. Don't believe everything a "highlander" tells you either, that's my motto. Apart from the "my heart is in the highlands" type highlander, is there really such a thing anyway? Bless 'em, they mean well. So did they regard people from the Southern Uplands Sassenachs as well, even though they weren't "lowlanders" as such, as they didn't live in the Lowlands? It's getting confusing here. I think if you look you'll find this was another one of those magical 18/19th century creations.

Originally Posted by Lianachan

Highlanders

Must you be so condescending and insulting?

You called me an Englishman. I reserve the right to act as i see fit



The only time i would maybe concede that people from the lowlands were rightly called "Sassenachs" would have been when the Northumbrian kingdom stretched into modern day Scotland. The border was forever changing but the Borders aren't in the Lowlands. I think that's where the confusion is. "Lowlander" is not an accurate word to use and only causes confusion.


edit: I just did a search and it confirmed that King Aethelstan was the first West Saxon King to reign over all of England. "England itself means Angle-land" but the first king was a Saxon. This is where the word comes from. Calling an Englishman a Saxon man It's no different from calling a Pict a Scotsman.

[NovaBritannia]

Originally Posted by Tartan Paint

"Traditionally applied to lowland Scots too". By whom exactly? Sassun = England, Sassenach = Englishman. It's similar in Welsh and Irish. Can you speak Gaelic? I can and i didn't learn it with the aid of a tape recorder. It comes from "Saxon". Was William Wallace a Sassenach?

Sassenach obviously comes from 'Saxon' - but how many English people have Saxon blood in any real manner? Probably as many as the Lowlands Scottish people. It's all a racial myth if you're going to say that English people = Saxons while Scottish people = something else. A Lowlander will probably be closer in genetic makeup to an Englishman than a Highlander.

But yes, Sassenach is used by Tcheucters to describe people from the lowlands. After all, we speak a Saxon language and live in an Anglicised culture...

Incidently, while you observe that the Borders aren't in the Lowlands, it is a fairly common conception that they are. I couldn't actually say for certain, but they are commonly called such.