Charlie on William

[Seraphine]

Charlie,

Well - now's the test - new thread - new place - let's see if I remain on track!!!

Thank you for info - it's fun to read because your passion about your homeland is obvious. There was an advertisement hanging over the stage at this Irish Fest I was at that read "Why Ration Passion?" - it's stuck with me since that concert.

I have a book - William Wallace The King's Enemy by D.J. Gray...it certainly portrays a noble picture of Wallace - one can't help but marvel at the super humans who have walked this planet. Wallace was one of them.

Are Scots more enthralled with Wallace or Robert Bruce? For example, if you ask most Americans which leader seems to draw up noble ideas and humanity in poetic motion - it has to be Abraham Lincoln more so than say....George Washington (even though they both have big places in history).

It seems the more we romanticize an historical figure - the more we take poetic license with their stories. I'm just fascinated when Isabella marries Edward in 1308 and ends up in a film with William Wallace cheating on her husband before he was executed (even though it was really 1305 - correct?) The reason I make an issue out of this is because (as you mentioned) Wallace led an extraordinary life - why fake portions of it when it seems obvious? For lazy audiences - the film shed some light on a political scene from a historical perspective which I think overall was positive - but as soon as the story teller embellishes too much - credibility becomes doubtful and the person's whole life can be held in question - Man or Myth?

It frustrates me at times...and it's not just poetic license with nonfiction. Sometimes it's fiction - great literature. For example, The Scarlet Letter was loosely adapted for a motion picture film starring Demi Moore and Gary Oldman - they changed the end!!!The reverand doesn't die at the end. What a strange choice - I can't believe everyone involved in such a project would actually think that would work at the box office.

Anyway - back to that time period...Long Shanks - had a weird request for his heart to go to Palestine and his boiled bones to be wrapped in a bull's hide and carried at the head of the army. His son didn't honor this request...I wonder what it was all supposed to signify?
Religious belief connected to the Holy Land? The bull thing seems to be carried down from old Celtic practices related to the pagans - Druids...

So...related to this (there are Threads in my brain too - easier to follow than at the bulletin board) - on a scale of 1-10 - how much do the Scots dislke the English? I didn't used to have the impression it was that intense - but now I'm thinking it's closer to the Irish than I used to think.

It's a facsinating thing - hatred. My mother is American with a New Zealand mother and a grandmother from Edinburgh who married an Englishman who was a sea captain in the Royal Navy in WWI. My family seems to repeat the history of marrying out of the flock. My great Gran (a Murray) married the English sea captain - they immigrated to New Zealand. My grandmother met my Grandfather during WWII (he was from Illinois) - married him and immigrated to the US. Their daughter (my mom)grew up on stories from her mother about New Zealand and Scotland (which were told to her by my grandmother and great grandmother). My mother married an Iranian (my dad) who is very sweet about learning about her interests and took her to Scotland for their 25th anniversary. My mom fell in love with the place and now wants me to go next summer with my sister...We really can't afford too much prejudice in our family because everyone seems to be everywhere. Oh! and intersting other little fact - my great Uncle (who was a Murray)fought in WWII - he was a member of The Black Watch - we have a great photo of him in his kilt. He was a wonderful man - very artistic - and died just a few years ago of cancer - that cancer seems to really get some of the best people around (sigh).

Change of topic: Did I read right? You own a shop? What kind? Where is it? It would be crazy for me to go there and visit it with my sister...I think I asked this before - but was lost in the threads of Bulletin Board land - what do you think of the art fest in Edinburgh - Bulletin board Andy thinks it's a bit crazy - what's your take on it?

How old are your children? One last thought...your messages at a glance are interesting because they don't match your age by my guess)...it's the guitar baby in part - also the purple car. YES! That purple car again! But all this history info suggests maturity or smarts (mine is smarts - smile).

I'm getting carried away (I'm on a roll now) I'm probably supposed to be at four different boards or fifty other threads - but I don't communicate well in fragments. Sorry to be so...long winded.

How's your dad?

If I find your answer on this new thread - I know I'm finally in the game.

Byeeeeeee

Seraphine

[crying-charlie]

Hi Seraphine!

Well it must be working, I'm here. lol

Now where to start?

As for Wallace or Bruce? I can only answer for myself. The two men were totaly different, and I think Wallace not only inspired the people of Scotland at the time but the Bruce also. I warm to both men.

Although William Wallace and Robert the Bruce were of the same period in Scottish history, their aims were, to begin with, very different. Wallace was driven by patriotism and hatred of the English invaders, Bruce on the other hand, was initially motivated by his personal ambition. The family of Bruce was Anglo-Norman and known as de Brus. His grandfather had been one of the claimants to the Scottish throne when Balliol was nominated by the English King, Edward I. The Bruce had originally sworn fealty (allegiance) to the English king too but changed sides as Wallace became recognized as the leader of the Scottish armies by virtue of his various successes against the English. I actually own a replica of William Wallace's sword.

I know what you mean about keeping thing right as regards to the facts. But I do think that if they had, then the film would have been days long. The Princess Isabella part, I think, was put in as a romantic interest and all tho hoistoricaly incorrect, I felt it did'nt detract too much from the story as long as children dont think that's what really happened. Wallace is real and not a myth.

Edward Long Shanks and the heart & bones thing, I think he just wanted to believe that he could still conquer his enemies even after death.

1-10 I dont think we 'hate' the English but as for myself I work for Londoner's who set up the company in Scotland and I do find them rather arrogant and obnoxsious and they do think they are superior. So, 'Hate' is a strong word, and I do have alot of friends from the North of England, so on a scale of 1-10 I don't have a lot of time for the people in the South of their country, so I would say 8.

Where did you read I had a shop? lolol No I own a cottage which I let out to holidat makers, but not a shop.

I have only been to the festival twice and its grat for the tourist's but its not for me. The only part of the festival I really enjoy is the 'Tatoo' The sound of Pipes and Drums sends shivers down my spine.

My children are great and so is my father, and I'm glad you like reading the posts. As for maturity, well, if your talking about the way I am, then I'm 18 lol but if your talking about maturity in years, then I'm 40 lol My Mum and Dad started young.

Have you decided where in Scotland you want to visit?

[Seraphine]

Charlie,
I don't need a last name - but I don't know if your name is Charlie - is it?

I'm still tentative about the icons - don't want to seem cocky - when I might get lost again - do these threads have a duration? Those two "notes" read as pages by themselves!

I'll keep with history a bit here - to say I have a "right" to stay on the history board...

I'm impressed with what appears to be a general European understanding of history in a way that not many Americans seem to have. It's not a good thing - being unaware of one's past. The whole "history repeats itself" saying seems to have more possibility of happening here than anywhere. But maybe ignorance is bliss to some...

If Long Shanks thought he had some ability to go forth from the spirit world via his bones in a bull's hide, he had to be a very ... what do I want to say here? Religious? Superstitious? kind of a guy. What about this whole ghost-in-the-castle intrigue? Everyone from the US wants to check out the spook action. What do you make of these stories?

My mother, who comes from a line of tea cup reading, fortune telling borderline psychics (not psychos) ... defines things in terms of energy. Bad and good...not really ghosts. She told me she wouldn't want me to go on one of those underground fright tours they hold in Edinburgh around midnight. She said when she was there with my dad the idea of it gave her the creeps in what she calls a "real" goose bump kind of way - (not hysterical female sort of way).

She walked in the cemetary at the base of Stirling castle and took several b&w photos. These are eerie to look at - but when I asked her if she had the same feeling walking through the cemetary as the idea of going under the streets in Edinburgh, she said no. But my dad had other ideas - he evidently was yelling at her from about 100 yards out of the cemetary saying "Enough pictures Let's go! Let's go!" He's very superstitious (also comes from a line of tea reader types). She said she enjoyed torturing him by taking her time photographing and waving at him. Sort of like a swimmer who's waving at a nonswimmer on shore. Anyway - I'd like to see Stirling.

Why don't you like the festival? If you're "18" - it seems like it would be something you'd want to do. Is it safe for a 24 & 18 year old female? I don't quite picture anything as crazy as Mardi Gras in New Orleans (no I 've never gone - but my little sister bit into the baby of one of the festival cakes at a school party when they were studying different customs). My dad is nervous about us attending - he definitely sees Mardi Gras in a castle.

I want to see great pubs, great history, beautiful landscape, while I have the best chance of serendiptously (smile) meeting a Dougray Scott type (smile again). What do the Dougray Scotts of Scotland think about foreign women anyway? I know you can't generalize - but try. What's a good approach to meeting people? You're older (not old) and a dad - so you might have some insight into the "Women are from Venus - Men from Mars" guide book if it's with a Women are from the US and Men from Scotland twist.

I want to be as safe as possible before I make a trip. I don't want to spend a week groping around in the dark like I have on these bulletin boards!!! I'm not asking for "turn ons" - I'm asking more about "turn offs". What do Scots dislike about Americans?... What's your best idea of safe and economical transportation - my dad, who's an excellent driver, said trying to get the hang of driving in a week is too stressful. Where do the smart but not stuffy types (with A creative outlook on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) hang out?

So far I have learned: 1. Don't talk about the English - talk about the Scots 2. Say "Scots" 3. Don't stereotype purple cars 4. know some history 5. Know what a black adder really is 6. while camping you need to watch out for midges 7. at least two Scots say the Festival is "not for them"

Also! Do you know anything about the culinary arts and good schools in Scotland? There's one in Edinburgh - but my sister (who wants to own her own famous restaurant one day) thinks it's not the best. I think she's really intersted in checking into some experiences outside of US.

Last, staying with "history", how old are your kids? How many do you have? I have a sister who is 10. She'd probably love a pen pal. Any of your kids old enough?

I swear I read you had a shop - some flag comment to someone I think...I don't know - I was scanning threads and trying to find my stuff. So sort of got a general trustworthy feel about you by cruising around the messages...What do you do at Londoner's?

Last thought...If you like pipers and are willing to listen to music that is not pure Scot - but directly related, check out Hevia "Tierra De Nadie" - there's the Basque Spain connection with the pipes here. I think you and your wife would really like to drive out in the country with your purple car "soft top" down while you blast this one. It's GREAT!!!!

I realize you probably won't answer all of this - but any thing you're willing to pass on is fun to read...

Seraphine

[crying-charlie]

Hi Seraphine,

Well, yes my real names' not Charlie. Some of the threads on this site have been here for years. If you want to talk about other things, then we really need to take it to another topic as thids is the history one.

I myself don't know to much about "European" history, what I am interested in, is the history os Scotland which to a certain extent takes in parts of European history as well.

Long Shanks and the resion for wanting his army to do what he wanted with his boned. Religious? I think not, I believe Long Shanks like many English Kings & Queens used religion as an excuse to INVADE other countries! Superstitious? Don't thik so! I think it was more to do with his English arrogance and maybe he thought it would some how mean he would still in some way Conquer us or maybe intimidate the Scots in battle.

Spooky!!!! lol I have spent time in the cemetary at Stirling Castle (not in a morbid kind of way, lol)but I have to admit, I never found it creapy, I found it quite calming.

Stirling has a festival and I do enjoy that. I think because Stilings festival is more of a historic one rather than a festival of lovies in bizar so called artistic plays etc. Festival time in Stirling is a good time to visit, not that there's a bad time, and yes, its nothing like Mardi Gras. lol I think that Stirling would be a great place for you to be based, it has grat pubs, grat hisory and you are not far away from beautiful landscapes.

What do Dougray Scotts think of foreign women? lolol Gosh, I don't know! I myself like alsorts of women, lol now I sound like a tart! lol I don't think that you will have any problems with us Scotts lads, just be your self.

I stopped trying to understand Women along time ago cos I realized I never will! lol

What do Scots dislike about Americans? I don't know realy, the only thing that comes to mind for me is, that some of the Americans I have met are a wee bit LOUD! lol but apart from that, nothing realy. Oh, don't say things like "We have larger ones than that in the States" And don't complain too much, remember your in another country that may do things different.

Your dads right, trying to get the hang of a car in a week will be a nighrmare. I'm not saying that we have te best public transport in the world, far from it but if you are based in Stirling you can get a train direct to Edinburgh or Glasgow and I'm sure there will be coach trips by the Scottish Tourist Board to other places.

One other imoprtant thing to remember is, we are Scots not Scoch, Scoch is our national drink, lol.

I love cooking, I know, not realy the romantic image of a big hairy arsed Scot in his kilt running through the highlands, waving his sword in the air shouting, FREEDOM! but I do. I can't help with the food school thing but there mut be info like that on the web.

Three kids 7, 9 and 10 If one has a pen pal the the other two will have to have one as well. lol Thats just the way kids are.

Now to the shop thing! lolol I now where you get that from, someone on the boards asked about getting hold of a flag, I said We had a shop near us that sold them.

What do I do at Londoners? Not quite sure what you mean there! lol But if you mean what would I like to do to them? Well I can't answer that one cos I might get kicked off the site for bad language.

When planning your trip to Scotland, you should read and post on the Travel topic, because you will find alot of good info on there.

Cheers for the Spanish Inquisition

[such-is-life]

Hello fine people.

I see that William Wallace and Robert the Bruce are mentioned but what about Andrew Munro who was just as important, if not more-so, than Wallace?
I liken the situation to that of Nirvana and Mudhoney, with Mudhoney not recieving the credit and Nirvana getting it all.
Just a thought.

[crying-charlie]

Thanx Such, you mean Andrew De Mory
William Wallace's Forgotten Soldier

In March, 1297, young Andrew de Moray escapes from imprisonment in England and traveled back to his family's lands in the province of Moray. He raised the standard of revolt against the English and soon gathered a small army of rebels at Avoch castle, a scant 7 miles distant from Inverness across the
Inverness Firth.

Young Andrew had been a prisoner of Edward I. His father, Sir Andrew de Moray, and his uncle had olso been held in the Tower of London, along with many other Scottish knights who had shown earlier tendencies to revolt and had had the misfortune to be captured and taken to England as assurance against further uprisings.

This however did not deter the young Andrew. He knew the men of Moray would rally to his standard in an effort to throw off the English yoke.

Inverness at that time was held by the English, along with the castles of Urquhart, Nairn, Forres, Elgin, and Lochindorb. The burgesses of Inverness were chafing below the castle, from the battlements of which flew the pennon of an English knight. When the word went out that Andrew was raising the banner of revolt, many of them traveled to Avoch castle and cast their lot with the rebels. The leader of the burgesses was a man named Alexander Pilche, and he became the trusted lieutenant of Andrew and his warriors from the Moray lands. Pilche is an unsung hero of the Scottish War of Independence, as are many others.

To be continued.......

[Seraphine]

Charlie,

Since you seem to know your history so well - can you tell me if the Moray you mention is the same Moray (a province...."clan?") related to Murray? I'm still a bit fuzzy on the Murray clan from the point of blood lines - I've read they helped with Wallace's rebellion and that they are related to Moray - but most Murrays can't claim a blood line (like the MacMurrays) but instead a relationship to a group that lived in a specific area - is that correct? So if it's a group related surname - it's more like saying your ancestors were a member of a group and the group supercedes the bloodline for importance? For example, if I was decended from someone who was a member of The Knights Templar and that group was all important to those members - they used "Templar" as their "family" name -instead of a biological family tree name? So the Murray tartan designates a group more than a "family tree'? Perhaps like the Black Watch tartan my uncle wore?

I understand eventually the Murray name does become biological - but at some point in time it looks more membership related. Am I making my question clear - or do I look as blonde as I did when I was lost in the threads?

Check out pen pals - there's a response there too. You didn't answer my question - do you swing your claymore? Does it weigh the same as Wallace's did or is it lighter?

I'm beginning to think this bulletin board is rather exclusive since the same names keep showing up - it's sort of like stumbling into a Cheers bar or something.

OK - OFF to Pen pals so I don't rip off the threads!

P.S. - I like your new signature better than your old one - it looks more like someone who has a sword - but the dancing baby did look like it belonged to someone who has a purple car - I guess it's a toss up.