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Interesting article on the Anglicisation of the Scots

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 19th July 2011, 14:10
ANDY-J3 ANDY-J3 is offline
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I found both of the articles that Sgoinneil has posted to be interesting, factual and objective which is what I would expect given that they were written by academics. What I didn't find was that they had any particular relevance to the arguments being put forward by Sgoinneil. I think in Scotland before the modern era there wasn't anything like a completely homogenous culture nor could there have been given the religious and ethnic divisions within the country. What you had was a dominant set of cultural values that the social elite whether they were Gaelic or Lowlander adopted but amongst the poorer classes there was a lot of cultural diversity.
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Old 19th July 2011, 14:22
Sgoinneil Sgoinneil is offline
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But I have never purported that homogeneity was an essential component of any kingdom or state. Medieval Scotland was if anything, like the Balkans in the early twentieth century. Someone else mentionned the H word and I concur. Ethnicity was key to self perceptions in the early medieval kingdom, but not to loyalty to the crown. Nor should it be represented as having been.

Gaelic society was extremel fluid, as was Anglo Scottish society, at all periods. There were probably Gaelic covenanters in the South West of Scotland at the time before the plantations of Ulster, and certainly Ulster Scots Gaels preaching Protestantism there in the 17th century. Our notions of Gaelic equating to homogeneity seem to be a modern interpretation of Gaelicness.
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Old 20th July 2011, 04:49
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You're so right !
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Old 21st July 2011, 12:53
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I saw nothing in any of Sgoinneil's posts that seemed to me to justify any of Andy's criticisms. He posted a link to an article that in part addressed "the Anglicisation of the Scots." One can disagree with some of the assertions made in that article (and I do not necessarily agree with all of it). But to jump on Sgoinneil for suggesting it might be an interesting article? To attack him for having an agenda? (As he has attacked others here for what he perceived as "an agenda"?!) I am left wondering what andy's agenda is. Perhaps andy is getting hung up on the term "Scots"? It is true that English influence on Gaelic culture in the region of Britain that later became known as Scotland predated a clearly identifiable Scottish identity. But the reality of english influence on Gaelic culture can not be credibly disputed. (Though I am not convinced as to how purposeful that "anglicisation" was at the time of Malcolm. (Though in later centuries I DO believe the English pursued a purposeful policy of anglicisation of the Scots.) Nor does the fact that the Gaelic "working classes" did not willingly abandon their culture disprove that abandonment of Gaelic ways in favor of English ways by Gaelic upper classes (which DID happen) would, in the long term, facilitate the anglicisation of the gaelic culture that had existed in "Scotland."
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Old 21st July 2011, 14:31
ANDY-J3 ANDY-J3 is offline
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Originally posted by apict

I saw nothing in any of Sgoinneil's posts that seemed to me to justify any of Andy's criticisms. He posted a link to an article that in part addressed "the Anglicisation of the Scots." One can disagree with some of the assertions made in that article (and I do not necessarily agree with all of it). But to jump on Sgoinneil for suggesting it might be an interesting article?


Read my words above and I quote " I found both of the articles that Sgoinneil has posted to be interesting, factual and objective." So how can I jump on someone for suggesting it was an interesting article having stated myself that it is an interesting article?




To attack him for having an agenda,(As he has attacked others here for what he perceived as "an agenda"?!)


I've already told Sgoinneil that having an agenda is fine. I have no problem with someone arguing their point of view. I've never attacked anyone for having an agenda. People express a viewpoint and support it with evidence - I have no problem with that at all, just as long as your agenda doesn't affect your objectivity.


I am left wondering what andy's agenda is.

My agenda is to try insofaras is possible to engage in an objective and unbiased appraisal of Scottish history. Whether I always succeed in that I don't know but that's my aim.


Perhaps andy is getting hung up on the term "Scots"?


No.
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Old 21st July 2011, 14:40
ANDY-J3 ANDY-J3 is offline
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Originally posted by Apict


It is true that English influence on Gaelic culture in the region of Britain that later became known as Scotland predated a clearly identifiable Scottish identity. But the reality of english influence on Gaelic culture can not be credibly disputed.


People don't live in a vacuum. Obviously you have influence on Gaelic culture from the various peoples they encountered whether it be Picts, Britons or Anglo-Saxons. You have Anglo-Saxon influence on the Picts hence you find Anglian architectural influences appearing in north east Scotland. Cultural exchange is occuring throughout the British isles from the dark ages.
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Old 28th July 2011, 13:58
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Sgoinneil's original post starting this thread said this and only this:
"Interesting article on the Anglicisation of the Scots" and that article did in fact discuss the anglicisation of the Scots.
The first response to that post was yours, where you said, "Obviously once again you are taking liberties and putting your own spin on a text in order to promote your own agenda."
My criticism of you for that stands.
Your above posts seem to me to be a too late attempt to portray yourself as reasonable and objective.
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