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Old 25th March 2011, 21:17
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Question Why, exactly Scots > Ireland?

I cheerfully humble my American self before thee - to ask the question you no doubt do not wish to answer yet again, or which has been well answered elsewhere in this forum and I have yet to find.

> Why, for heaven sake, DID so many Scots move away from their homeland to Ireland (Ulster or elsewhere)?

> Did they ALL go to Ulster, and if so or if not, then where?

> Were there no Scots in Ireland prior to the migration to Ulster?

Placing myself at your collective mercy, please understand that all we have to go by is what would charitably be termed "myth"... but, some of us here take special pride in the notion that Scotland was not ever occupied by Rome.

There, I've said it.
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Old 25th March 2011, 21:56
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I don't know too much about the Ulster Scots question tho I have read a bit on them. Anyway, I am sure someone with more knowledge will answer your questions in more detail, but the simple answers are:

* the Scots weren't given much choice about staying in Scotland, but to help them relocate they were offered land in Ulster;

* not all would have stayed put; some probably returned to Scotland while others could have moved elsewhere in Ireland or possibly tried their chances in England or Wales;

* there most likely were Scots in Ireland prior to this, after all the two countries are only 12 miles or so apart!

As for the Romans in Scotland, while its true they never occupied the whole country they certainly
stayed long enough to build a wall (the Antonine) and a few forts! Who knows what would have happened if they'd stuck around longer...
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Old 25th March 2011, 23:05
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BlueHawk

Do a google re 'Irish Plantation'... all will be revealed!
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Old 26th March 2011, 00:55
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Thank you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotSites View Post
I don't know too much about the Ulster Scots question tho I have read a bit on them. Anyway, I am sure someone with more knowledge will answer your questions in more detail, but the simple answers are:

* the Scots weren't given much choice about staying in Scotland, but to help them relocate they were offered land in Ulster;

* not all would have stayed put; some probably returned to Scotland while others could have moved elsewhere in Ireland or possibly tried their chances in England or Wales;

* there most likely were Scots in Ireland prior to this, after all the two countries are only 12 miles or so apart!

As for the Romans in Scotland, while its true they never occupied the whole country they certainly
stayed long enough to build a wall (the Antonine) and a few forts! Who knows what would have happened if they'd stuck around longer...
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Old 26th March 2011, 00:56
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I shall, and will report back with further inquiries, probably.
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Originally Posted by Polwarth View Post
BlueHawk

Do a google re 'Irish Plantation'... all will be revealed!
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Old 26th March 2011, 01:45
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Question To begin...

Desiring to keep it as simple as possible, arriving at my own conclusions eventually - let me begin with the following words from this source:

History of Ireland 1598 - 1629: Defeat of Ulster and the Ulster Plantation

"So this time the settlers were to live in specially built fortified towns known as Plantation Towns. In 1609 the English mapped out 4,000,000 acres of land and started gaving it out in 1610. Counties Down, Monaghan and Antrim were planted privately. Counties Derry and Armagh were planted with English. Counties Tyrone and Donegal were planted with Scots. Counties Fermanagh and Cavan were planted with both Scots and English.

The vast majority of the settlers were Scottish, as it turned out, and they brought with them a new form of Christianity, Presbyterianism, which was different from both Roman Catholicism and the Church of England, although it is classified as Protestant. They also brought new farming methods and a Puritan lifestyle."

That much, I believe, could be the crux of discovering what might have brought and/or sent my own Bell ancestors first TO Ireland (Antrim, I believe), and afterward from there TO the American colonies.

We were always taught to be "Orange" on matters of Irish loyalty - though I must confess not knowing what the heck they were talking about until well past my 30th birthday. Therefore, I assume our role at the Irish Plantation was more or less as foreign occupiers?

Evidently at least some of our kin did not like being in that role, or were frightened out of it.

> So, when the text says that Antrim was "planted privately" - then,
a) by whom and
b) why not by the English or Scots?
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Old 26th March 2011, 04:39
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Lightbulb Letter to my family, this evening

I wrote this to the remaining direct descendants, hopefully I got some of it right, or that someone here might provide enlightenment:
---------------
Dear family,

I have been boning up on the history of our ancestors in Ireland, who came or were sent there (still working on which of those was the case) from Scotland.

Here below is a snippet of history for your reading.

Keep these dates and facts in mind as you read what I have copied for you below:

> Our 8th great grandfather, Matthew Bell was born in 1652 in the Kirkconnel district of Scotland, a member of Clan Bell. He died in the County Antrim of Ireland in 1688. Antrim was one of three private so-called "Irish Plantation" districts set aside for Protestants in Ulster. The remaining Ulster districts were set aside for Scottish and English owners. That difference is something else I am looking into the meaning of. The fact that Matthew died at age 36, is somewhat of concern. That is a very young age to pass away from natural causes, even in the 15th century when a normal lifespan of 50 and 60 years was quite common. The age suggests, but I cannot prove, that he may have been involved in the warfare - especially since, as you will see, the Battle of the Boyne took place in 1690 - 2 short years later.

> The family lore that we were from County Down turns out to be false, or at least questionable; Matthew may have gone first to County Down and then later to Antrim, or perhaps never went to Down at all. In any event, he was in Ireland in 1677 - at age 25, roughly 60 or so years after the "Irish Plantation" movement began:
"In 1609 the English mapped out 4,000,000 acres of land and started giving it out in 1610. Counties Down, Monaghan and Antrim were planted privately. Counties Derry and Armagh were planted with English. Counties Tyrone and Donegal were planted with Scots. Counties Fermanagh and Cavan were planted with both Scots and English."

> His son, also named Matthew Bell, was born in Londonderry, Ireland in 1677 and passed away, as our first Bell family colonist to the new world at Cumberland in the Pennsylvania Colony, in 1722. Londonderry, as will be remembered, is the name of a famous city which, in fact, had its name changed from "Derry" in 1613 as the Protestant King James I of England and Scotland (Mary Queen of Scots' son and successor) sought to impose English rule over Catholic Irish - by the fiat of essentially taking control by settling Scots on 4,000,000 acres from them for that purpose.

> In other words, our ancestor was sent or went to Ireland specifically for the purpose of helping to occupy Ulster, driving out the Catholics, and replacing them with Presbyterians or Puritans. I am not yet certain, but will find out, exactly at what time Matthew Bell Sr. went from Scotland to Ireland, but it had to have been between 1652 and 1677. I also do not yet know for sure whether he/they would have been more likely Presbyterian or Puritan; probably the former. Those particular years are important to remember however, as you will soon see.

> At the moment, I have no way of being sure what Matthew Sr's motivation might have been; if he was sent, or if he volunteered for the cause and, if so, for what possible reason(s). I would like to believe that he had no choice - but, who knows. It is for sure in any case, that Ireland has not yet fully recovered from the "Irish Plantation" movement, as it was called then, nor from the brutal reign of English/Scottish Protestants between 1610 and 1829. As we reflect upon modern-day political and religious adventures worldwide, I believe that our own participation in this particularly notorious ancient saga is a lesson worth remembering as well.

> Nor do I yet know when or why his son, Matthew, departed Ireland for American colonies.

------------------------

Source:
Irish History Articles - Plantation to the Penal Laws by Dr. Samuel Couch

William of Orange and the Battle of the Boyne

When James II, a Catholic, succeeded to the English throne in 1685 he tried to restore the faith to England. With more support in Ireland, he turned all the top jobs in Ireland over to Catholics. In November 1688, James's brother-in-law, William of Orange, landed in England and won over the English who did not wish to return to the Roman church. The Irish were happy to give over to a Catholic king, but opposition to James came from Derry and Enniskillen, two Protestant towns in the north. In April 1689, Derry's governor attempted to give in to the Catholic Jacobites but was stopped by apprentice boys who locked the city gates against the Catholics. This action is commemorated each year with a parade and the burning of the governor's effigy. The siege of Derry lasted 105 days as the Protestants held out against Jacobite forces.


The decisive battle between Protestants and Catholics occurred on the Boyne River in 1690. William arrived with a huge army from England and the continent blessed by the Pope, the Holy Roman Emperor and the king of Spain. In July, William's troops (3:1 over the Jacobites) beat James's forces. James fled. In the remaining battles, thousands of Irish died at Aughrim. The siege of Limerick in 1691 lasted a month before surrender. Under the terms, Irish soldiers were exiled to France. Catholic rights were guaranteed to those who chose to stay. Mass migration of 14,000 followed; this is known as the Flight of the Wild Geese. In France, the Irish brigade was formed; they fought bravely against the English. The English did not keep the bargain with respect to Catholic rights. They intended to mold Ireland to Protestant perfection.


The Period of the Penal Laws began in 1695 and lasted until 1829. During this time the minority Protestant population governed totally. The Irish Parliament refused to carry out terms of the Treaty of Limerick and repressive laws continued to be passed by both the English and Irish Parliaments.


The most important of the Penal Laws:

Religion. All Catholic parishes were left intact, but priests had to be registered. All other clergy were forced to leave the country on pain of death. No Catholic chapel could have a steeple or a bell.
Education. No Catholic could teach school or send their children abroad for education. This led to the formation of illegal "hedge schools" which continued into the twentieth century.
Social Position. All government officials, lawyers, doctors were forced to swear on oath the falsity of the Catholic religion.
Arms, Property, Franchise. No Catholic could bear arms or keep a horse worth more than 5. If a Protestant saw a Catholic with a valuable horse, he could purchase it for 5. Only if he conformed, could the eldest Catholic son inherit his father's property. No Catholic could purchase land or hold a lease for more than 31 years. The vote was only allowed to people who would deny the Roman church and take Protestant communion. Later the laws directly disenfranchised all Catholics.
Persecution of Presbyterians. The act requiring communion under the Protestant rite was called the Test Act. Under this law Presbyterians also suffered.
Trade and Manufacture destroyed. Irish commerce was destroyed so that there would be no trade competition with England. Protestants suffered more than Catholics since the papist majority was hardly involved in commerce.
Exports forbidden. Export to the West Indies were banned as was the export of cattle to England.
Wool Trade ruined. A duty imposed on all Irish wool and on all manufactured woolen articles effectively ended the wool trade.
Smuggling. Wool was smuggled to France and wine, brandy and silk returned to the country. All classes of people engaged in the smuggling trade.
General Ruin of Manufactures. Beer, malt, hats, cotton, silk, gunpowder, ironware manufacture were destroyed by legislation.
Poverty and distress were the result. Thousands of Ulster Presbyterians immigrated to New England and Canada. Irish trade never recovered.
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