Where was Wallace Born? Renfrewshire or Ayrshire?

[AJMorton]

It's an old debate. I know. But in light of recent evidence, there seems to be a bit more life to it.

I never had faith in either in particular. The regions of West-Renfrewshire and those of North-Ayrshire are so very close together that Wallace should still be considered a west coast, Lowland Scot. And as a west-coast lowlander, I'm quite content with that. But something new happened to this avenue of Wallace research. A breakthrough in the otherwise vague and mythical stories of Wallace arrived in the form of a report outlining his Ayrshire associations.

Until recently both camps mainly relied on little anecdotal snippets, topographical features and other unreliable indicators, but hard evidence (of a qualitative nature), from either camp, was never forthcoming.

Until this reporthttp://www.east-ayrshire.gov.uk/<br ...%20Wallace.pdf was published by Dr. Fiona Watson of Glasgow University.

What do you think? Ayrshire or Renfrewshire?

[Croi Sasanach]

As a neutral;

It seems that there are many who are clammering for him to be from the most west place possible, or anyplace where they could label him as Gaelic as possible. Funny as **** if they found he was from Carlisle.

[AJMorton]

I had no idea of the Gaelic angle. Who tries to render him Gaelic?

The two main contenders (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire) were neither of them Gaelic (though a small Gaelic stronghold existed in Ayrshire). Otherwise, I thought all interested parties believed that he spoke a lowland Scots not unlike our own today.

Braveheart placed him in Glencoe-like mountains. There are no mountains in Elderslie or Ellerslie. The hills around Elderslie, Renfrewshire don't extend far beyond a thousand feet and the land around Ellerslie, Crosshouse could only be described as 'gently undulating'.

[Scottish_Republican]

The above comment is pure ignorance. Gaidhlig was spoken in most of the Lowlands at the time, with the exception of the Central Belt, and some parts of the Lower Tweed and Lothians.

Robert the Bruce and John Balliol were both Gaels, culturally and linguistically. Both of them came from the far south west - Galloway and south Ayrshire, which were Gaidhlig speaking much later than the Wars of Independence. Both had mothers who spoke the language.

However, it is right to state that he didn't live in a Glencoe type surrounding. By the way, I gather that was Ireland somewhere.

I thought all interested parties believed that he spoke a lowland Scots not unlike our own today.

Not necessarily the case. He may well have spoken Norman French. Lowland Scots was spoken as a first language by a far smaller percentage, than in modern times. I think he would have been able to speak Lowland Scots, but whether it was his first language is questionable. I suspect Wallace probably knew some Gaidhlig too, if only for basic communication. It would have been like travelling around remote parts of New Zealand, 150 years ago, without knowing any Maori.

An even longer shot suggests that Wallace may have known some Brythonic, but it is arguable whether it was still living at that point. Some phrases would have persisted, as some Cornish phrases were still to be heard in the 20th century in fishing communities.

[AJMorton]

What evidence do you have that almost all of the lowlands were Gaelic speaking in the late 13th and early 14th centuries?

Galloway, portions of Ayrshire and most likely the islands were predominantly Gaelic but the rest of the lowlands? Your "pure ignorance" comment should be followed up at least with some evidence.

Alternatively (if you can't produce evidence) you could be more polite.

[AJMorton]

I wrote:

The two main contenders (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire) were neither of them Gaelic (though a small Gaelic stronghold existed in Ayrshire).

Originally Posted by Scottish_Republican

The above comment is pure ignorance. Gaidhlig was spoken in most of the Lowlands at the time, with the exception of the Central Belt, and some parts of the Lower Tweed and Lothians.

...and most of North Ayrshire and Renfrewshire (the two locations on which this thread is based). I can't see the problem with my statement. I certainly can't identify the purely ignorant part of it. Most of Ayrshire (Cunningham & Kyle) was no longer predominantly Gaelic in the late 14th century. I did not mention the rest of the lowlands.

Robert the Bruce and John Balliol were both Gaels, culturally and linguistically.

Both are irrelevant at the moment. Robert the Bruce was (possibly!) born in South Ayrshire. John Balliol was possibly born in North Ayrshire.

Both of them came from the far south west - Galloway and south Ayrshire...

This is an error. It is not known where Balliol was born and his ancestry isn't strictly based in Galloway (Gaelic speaking). A good chunk of it comes from Cunningham (non-Gaelic speaking). Bruce's exact birthplace is also shrouded in mist. But his ancestral connections with Carrick (South Ayrshire) are well known.

...which were Gaidhlig speaking much later than the Wars of Independence.

Well...considering that there are still pockets surviving in both regions this isn't that shocking.

Both (Bruce and Balliol) had mothers who spoke the language.

Let's get back to Wallace though....

He may well have spoken Norman French. Lowland Scots was spoken as a first language by a far smaller percentage, than in modern times.

Of course. But evidence suggests that Cunningham was an area of Lowland Scots speakers and not Gaels.

I think he would have been able to speak Lowland Scots, but whether it was his first language is questionable.

It may be questionable but it's also likely.

[AJMorton]

Originally Posted by Scottish_Republican

The above comment is pure ignorance. Gaidhlig was spoken in most of the Lowlands at the time...

Don't want to rub it in but...this comment, I confess, bugged me quite a bit. According to the Senior Lecturer in English at Aberdeen University, specialising in Scots language and literature:

...the extinction of the old Gaelic royal line (with the death of Alexander III) had momentous consequences. The throne passed, after the reigns of Robert Bruce and his son David II, to the House of Stewart, a family whose power-base was in the Anglian-speaking Lowlands.

The national centre of gravity, so to speak, shifted southwards: and as part of this process, the Lowland tongue supplanted Gaelic as the language of king, court and government.

Yet you say that Bruce and Balliol and Wallace would have been Gaelic speakers BECAUSE they lived in the lowlands which were, at that time, mostly Gaelic speaking. I wouldn't even call this ignorance (as you called my mild mannered post).

I would just call it wrong.