Where was Wallace Born? Renfrewshire or Ayrshire?

[AJMorton]

Sorry about that. Old link. Here's a new one:

www.east-ayrshire.gov.uk/comser/tourism/William%20Wallace.pdf

[AJMorton]

Originally Posted by ScotSites

Here's an article written by David Ross that might help: Sir William Wallace of Elderslie!

David writes:

We do know that the Wallaces were vassals of the High Stewards of Scotland. Renfrew today is known as "The Cradle of the Stewarts". In fact all the High Stewards are buried in Paisley Abbey. This family came north from Shropshire on the Welsh Marches in the time of David I of Scotland.

There are some curious (academically recognised) omissions here. The Stewards were based at Dundonald Castle (in Ayrshire). Their vassals would have held land in and around this caput. If Wallace was a vassal of the Stewards, he may have been born in Ayrshire. His supposed loyalty to Balliol could also place him in Ayrshire. Many of his earlier exploits, at least those set in Ayrshire, have been entirely disregarded.

David also writes:

There is no doubt that when the poet "Blind Harry" wrote his epic paper in the 1400's entitled "The Life and Acts of Sir William Wallace of Ellerslie" he was referring to the estate near Paisley.

Blind Harry also refers to the River Irvine (in Ayrshire) and Riccarton (also in Ayrshire).

At the Elderslie, Renfrewshire site, two famous trees once stood, the Wallace oak, and the Wallace Yew. The yew alone remains. Some doubt has recently been cast on the antiquity of this tree, but parish records from the 1700's refer to it as "this ancient tree".

This simply isn't strong enough evidence.

[ScotSites]

I'm not disputing any of what you say AJMorton, but David Ross's main point centred round Wallace's birthplace being Elderslie (also known as Ellerslie) and at the time Wallace was born there doesn't appear to have been anywhere in Ayrshire of that name. So, in Ross's opinion (and one that from my experience appears to be the same as many others), if Wallace was titled "of Elderslie" then this would point to a Renfrewshire birthplace.

Also, as someone else (possibly yourself, but I am too lazy to check) has stated, Ayrshire and Renfrewshire are right next to each other so being born in one area does not exclude being active in the other; and just because Blind Harry mentions Ayrshire locations doesn't mean he is saying Wallace was born there... and as that birthplace appears to the be the subject of this topic why would David Ross actually need to include any of Wallace's early exploits?

What I really need to do is take some time to read the Fiona Watson article you posted properly, but from what I have read it doesn't state for definite that Wallace was born in Ayrshire... but then why would it? After all, the article she wrote was about Wallace's associations with that part of Scotland and, as already mentioned above, being born in one area doesn't mean that being active in another can be excluded (especially when those areas border each other)!

Personally I think this is one discussion that will never really be resolved as the early life of William Wallace is subject to more myths and legends than most historic figures!

[AJMorton]

All fair points, Scotsites. But it is still simply a case of lack of evidence. I will agree that there is a lack of evidence (though it grows) for the Ayrshire claim, but first would ask that the evidence for a Renfrewshire birth be produced at some point (not necessarily here) and compared to that of Ayrshire.

The epic "Actis and Deidis" by Blind Harry contains, as part of the introduction, the following:

His forbearis quha likis till wndrestand,
Of hale lynage, and trew lyne of Scotland ;
Schir Ranald Crawfurd, rycht schirreff of Ayr:
So in hys tyme he had a dochter fayr,
And 3onge Schir Ranald schirreff of that toune,

His systir fair, off gud fame and ranoune:
Malcom Wallas hir gat in mariage,
That Elrisle than had in heretage,
Auchinbothe, and othir syndry place ;
The secund O he was of gud Wallace

Elrisle, Auchinbothe, Ayr and "othir syndry places" suggests to me that he could have been born in either district, in any of these locations. For me the jury is out on the matter. Why we should accept the claims of a few Victorian romanticists without a proper review of the evidence is a puzzle to a growing number of historians, especially when the claims are delivered with passionate certitude.

Originally Posted by ScotSites

David Ross's main point centred round Wallace's birthplace being Elderslie (also known as Ellerslie) and at the time Wallace was born there doesn't appear to have been anywhere in Ayrshire of that name.

The original quote ("Shyr Wilham Wallace, knycht off Elrisle") cannot be conclusively matched with any modern town, village, county or shire in Scotland. The evidence that it refers to a site in Renfrewshire, or a site in Ayrshire, is wanting. That Renfrewshire should still be given precedence, in spite of the decade old evidence from Glasgow University, and the growing strength of the Ayrshire claim, is quite frustrating .

Despite the lack of anything resembling convincing empirical evidence and data, it is still somehow 'evident' he was born in Renfrewshire, as David Ross writes:

At the end of the day we do not have any document which resembles a birth certificate, so it is probably best to refer to Elderslie as being "evidently" the birthplace of William Wallace.

[AJMorton]

Blue indicates an Ayrshire site. Corsby has been tentatively identified as Crosshouse but it's less certain than the others.

His modyr and he till Elrisle thai went,
Vpon the morn scho for hir brothir sent,
In Corsby duelt and schirreff was of Ayr,
Hyr fadyr was dede, a lang tyme leyffyt had thar;
Hyr husband als at Lowdoun-hill was slayn,
[...]

With his wncle Wallas of Ricardtoun,
Schir Richard hecht, that gud knycht off renoun.
Thai lands hayle than was his heretage,
[...]

So on a tym he desyrit to play.
In Aperill the xxiij day,
Till Erewyn wattir fysche to tak he went,
[...]