1237

[Lianachan]

Originally Posted by Croi Sasanach

Aye ok, you knew what i meant though mate.

No, I didn't. That's why I mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Croi Sasanach

Anyway, the question in hand - can you contribute to answering that ?

The modern border is (more or less) as set out in the 1237 Treaty Of York (thus, I assume, the title of this thread), in which the traditionally Scottish areas of Northumberland and Cumbria were given to England. The border regions of both countries had not really been set in stone previously, and both countries more or less merged in an uncertain way. As you moved south, you were moving into increasingly English territory, but it would be difficult to pinpoint exactly when you crossed over into England.

[Croi Sasanach]

Originally Posted by Lianachan

No, I didn't. That's why I mentioned it.

The modern border is (more or less) as set out in the 1237 Treaty Of York (thus, I assume, the title of this thread), in which the traditionally Scottish areas of Northumberland and Cumbria were given to England. The border regions of both countries had not really been set in stone previously, and both countries more or less merged in an uncertain way. As you moved south, you were moving into increasingly English territory, but it would be difficult to pinpoint exactly when you crossed over into England.

I find that odd, so the Tyne was arguably an earlier border? I know that where Newcastle is now, was for a longtime a Roman and then 'German' garrison, despite much of the surrounding (northumberland and county durham) areas feeling contempt for these 'Invaders'.. and although much had changed by the time the borders had been drawn up, it seems odd that county durham would something different to northumberland.

From a linguistic point of view i think issoglosses noted two breaks in accent shift, one around the Tees and one around the border - considering most north-east accents were rhotic (accents that roll the R at the end of a word) in the early 1900's i would assume this break may not have existed in the not too distant past.

Ofcourse accent shift is natural and probably does not really prove anything border wise.

[Lianachan]

Language and culture are indeed no respectors of political boundaries or borders. The border region is a good example of an area where many different languages were spoken across the borders of the kingdoms of the time.

[aNonnyMoose]

Read George Macdonald Fraser's "The Steel Bonnets". Borderers didn't really consider themselves one side or the other. They looked after themselves, in the main.


Usually by helping themselves to other people's property, admittedly...

[ANDY-J3]

You get an insight into the attitudes of borderers when you realise that they didn't call the monarch King of Scots they mockingly called him King of the Lothians and Fife. There were edicts passed by several monarchs banning borderers from entering Scottish burghs because of their reputation for causing trouble. Their loyalties were to their own Lords and clan chiefs rather than to the crown.

[Duthill]

"If you live between two hostile neighbours who are constantly at each others throats, you are not likely to have a quiet life."
Border Reivers


Being the political football that they , and their homelands were , its' not surprising that their only loyalty was to their own blood .
What difference would we see had they united and become the third power in the region ?

I get the impression that the Border Reivers and the Highlanders had more more in common with each other , than with their immediate neighbours .