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The origin of the Scottich

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Old 22nd June 2006, 05:46
DistantCelt DistantCelt is offline
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Originally Posted by wild-in-tent
We are speaking of Celts here who had the names prior to Biblical times, Christians began in AD, some Celtic names are older than the Apostles writing the Bible and beginning Christianity. NOTE Israelites were on Phoenician ships. There is tons of evidence showing that the Phoenicians had Israelite sailors aboard and in fact the Tribe of Dan had alliances with Phoenicia. This is in Israelite records and Phoenician. So yes Phoenicians and Israelites came together and separately. Artifacts show both had ties with each other and with Ireland. Note I mentioned this above already that these Kings had Israelite names BEFORE Christian times.
So as I said, I await further study and will hold my own counsel on this one.

As i said, they notion that they are israelite names is utterly unsubstantiated. Those names were common throughout the near east and Israel was only a minor piece on the map ( culturally, militarily and influencially) even back then. As per kings of Ireland having 'Israeli' names, that is dubious claim at best since very few writings from Ireland survive before 800-900 AD and it was a common practice amongst European rulership to rename their ancestors in christianic fashion.
Israeli records ? just where are these records that claim about travel to Ireland or Scotland ? me thinks thats just propaganda.
All this tribes of dan or other stuff and land allocated to them are only mentioned in the bible- there aint no credible historic proof to back that up and phoenician influence has been found in Israel long after their 'supposed' migration outta Egypt.
Artifacts show very little as well.
The fact that some obscure artifact that maybe Phoenician or stuff adopted by the Israelis got discovered in Caledonia amounts to very little.
That is very little conclusive evidence to suggest that the Irish or scottish are israelis. All it points to is that the artifact got there. It could've been dumped there by shipwrecked folks, could've made its way through trade, could've been adopted by the celts from interactions with medeterranean cultures, etc etc. Artifacts from one civilisation has been found thousands of miles away from it's center in the hinterlands of another civilisation. All it suggests is the possibility of trade.
But the idea that Irish or scottish descend from Israelites is utterly unsubstantiated and a product of British Israelism phenomenon.
Most scholars of ancient history and anthropology agree that ancient israelis were an offshoot of egyptian civilisation with extensive borrowing from older nd far more established egyptian mythologies.
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Old 22nd June 2006, 09:39
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wild-in-tent wild-in-tent is offline
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My family who ruled in Cornwall and Brittany then onto Ireland is written of extensively in Brittany among others...and our ancestors are posted since early 500 AD...so though it may not be in many cases for many of the families, mine and many others I have run across are the exceptions....and our family had Jewish names prior to Christianity in our records. Nuff said on it....from my end....as I said...I will reserve my judgement till all the facts are in and the digging done. Houssine delves into these things...He can check for himself in the records that Brittany has as he can read the language they are presented in. I had translated copies and they are easy for him to obtain. He does not need to dally here. I told him where to look.
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Old 22nd June 2006, 16:29
DistantCelt DistantCelt is offline
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500 AD is not pre-christian era but post christian era.

Not to mention, when it comes to European writings, very little stuff before 700-800 AD is given any credibility save for Roman and Greek writings ( and very little apart from both civilisations exist in europe in the form of records).

Obviously i too am open to evidence suggesting otherwise but as it stands today, the idea that celts descend from the Israelis is nothing more than a British-Israelism claim with extremely shoddy analysis and resting on psuedo-science. From a scientific viewpoint, the claim is (as of now) utterly unsubstantiated, so therefore, it must be rejected before more solid claims are produced(which as i have explained is possible but highly unlikely.

PS: Whatever your family is/isnt is irrelevant when talking about an entire ethnic/cultural group such as the celts. FYI, some of the Aragonese/Castillian kings married Moorish and Cordoban princesses too. Doesnt make the people of Northern Spain/Andorra moorish. If your family has been in any sort of protracted rulership position long time ago, they almost by default fall into the 'exceptions rather than the norm' category when it comes to debating culture/ethnicity/genetics etc, for even little no-name chieftians sometimes took wives from amongst another little no-name chieftian guy living a few thousand miles away while the rest of the population of the nation has little or no mixing with that said group.
Not to mention, one family is hardly representative of a populace, irrespective to how much power they did or didnt weild.

Last edited by DistantCelt; 22nd June 2006 at 18:36.
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Old 22nd June 2006, 18:53
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c.340 - c.387 is the first one posted for Brittany on most sites online, but I have seen his father and grandfather on properly done records that I have myself...also Prior to that we have Turkey,etc..... The lines coming into those lines are posted as well. From 500's on I meant all of us, the several I was mentioning plus me. I had ancestors in Turkey with Jewish names...but Houssine can find that in the Books in Brittany's archives. It will direct him to countries of origin.
500's on you get full lineage for most families, prior to that you get a name here and there ie whom they descended from where the lines came from...so then you have to go to said country....My ancestor ruled in Wales as well. So they had data too....the family also had marriage into the Romans ie the Kings sister married a Roman. Brittany was the first to be Romanized.

Between 3500 and 1500 BC, new a new people came to Brittany from the Mediterranean who brought with them their traditions and religion.

Later the Celts arrived and settled in the Eastern parts of the country.

In the first Century BC, the Romans conquered Brittany. The Britons adopted Roman pagan religions.

In the 3rd century AD, Christianity arrived.

The Saxons set foot in Britain for the first time in AD 367, doing a lot of damage, before they were defeated and driven out by the Roman (Goth) general Flavius Theodosius, the father of Theodosius the Great (also called Flavius Theodosius). Theodosius the Great would eventually become emperor of the East in AD 379, and then later, the emperor of the recombined East and West (AD 392-395). As a Christian, Theodosius was known for his bigotry and religious intolerance, where he began the persecution and suppression of paganism and the Arianism, whom he accused of being heretics. It was Theodosius, who designated the Christians in which he belong to as Catholic.



I kept getting kicked off last night and it was an ordeal to post. I still can't get onto one of my other sites.
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Old 22nd June 2006, 19:17
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Yes our family was unique in many ways tis true, they came from mainland Europe and prior to that Turkey and Bactria with marriages to Georgian and Armenian etc rulers as well as marriages into Roman families....so indeed that is true but we also married into the population in later times...so they would carry our genetics lol! Anyhow back to Scotland....Houssine is wondering about Celtic origins and for that he has to go back to Europe and travel back....for they migrated to the Isles....at the same time for the Scottish ...they married into the Picts....now..who were the Picts question comes into play.....
This is also a link for Houssine on the Jewish communities in Brittany and France and their tumultous history for his files....
He has no doubt excellant sources but this one encapsulates it really well....

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...jw/France.html
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Old 23rd June 2006, 12:35
Veniconi Veniconi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wild-in-tent
...now..who were the Picts question comes into play
Well don't use Wikipedia if you're needing that question answered :|
Whoever supplied their info was on some mind-altering substance, and has, I suspect, never trod the Pictish lands for inspiration...
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Old 23rd June 2006, 18:42
ANDY-J3 ANDY-J3 is offline
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I had a look at it and it seems reasonably accurate and well written to me with an extensive list of reference sources.
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